MIP Licences

System
System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
edited June 9 in General accounting discussion
Hi Guys,

I recently posted a thread about MIPs and how difficult (or not) it is to get a licence and any post qualified experience you have to have to get a licence.

I received some good feedback but it seems that to get a licence you have to tick a few boxes as to what YOU feel YOU are competent in. How does the AAT assess what MIPs are competent in? Do they just take MIPs word for it or do they do "checks" on your work?

Essentially my question is what if you aren't really competent to do the work you claim you are competent to do because you've passed a few exams? Are there any safeguards in place where AAT can monitor the work MIPs perform?

Kind regards
Steve

Comments

  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    Hi Steve,
    Page 18 of the Guidlines and Regulations for Members in Practice states that as a member in practice you may be contacted by the AAT either in person or by phone to review your working practices and to discuss any problems etc.
    As an MIP you can request a review visit but the guidelines state that the AAT would expect you to meet any costs in this instance. :roll:
    If I was very clever I would post the link but as I'm not, you can download it as a pdf file from the MIP section on this website.

    However, I have never known anyone to have had such a review or have I ever seen any postings on these forums to that effect.
    It will be interesting to hear if anyone has had a review?


    Regards
    Sharon
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    On a similar theme, i wondered whether anyone had been refused permission by AAT to offer advice on a particular subject ie IHT/CGT etc?
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    That is my understanding too Sharon.

    I think that is the standard amoung all the professional bodies i.e. ACCA, ICAEW, CIMA etc.

    I think I know the angle Steve is coming from and I guess the answer is that when you complete your MiP for it must be signed off by another Accountant, the idea of this signature is telling the AAT that the information contained on the application form is true and correct and they can vouch for the applicants' 'work'.

    Perhaps a single signature is to onerous? Then again, how would you go about questioning an ACCA or ICAEW signature? I mean these are the people who have said the individual is ok to practice.

    Regards

    Dean
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences
    Dean wrote:

    Then again, how would you go about questioning an ACCA or ICAEW signature? I mean these are the people who have said the individual is ok to practice.

    The ACCA have a Directory of Members which the AAT can check. The ICAEW have the same thing but you have to pay them! :roll:
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    I know that the AAT can physically check that the individual signing is who they say they are i.e. ACCA, ACA qualified. What I mean is, if it is these people that say the MiP applicant is competant in the stated services, how are 'vetting board' at the AAT going to say that the MiP applicant isn't actually competant?

    Regards

    Dean
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    This is where I think the safeguards should be. Anyone can sign a form for whatever purpose. It is up to the AAT to ensure that their MIPs are up to their required standard.

    The only way I can see this being implemented is if the MIPs are subject to mandatory reviews. ACCA and ICAEW firms are subjected to such reviews and I fail to see why an AAT qualified MIP should escape such a procedure. In today's modern accountancy profession, in which ethics and high standards are pivotal, then surely the AAT should ensure their MIPs are up to a certain standard.

    Kind regards
    Steve
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    The AAT do have a review procedure and that is what Sharon was referring to. This review, may or may not happen. If it does happen, it will happen at some point in the future after the licence has already been granted. Here is what the AAT MiP guidelines say about reviews:
    14 Reviews
    As a member in practice you may receive a review visit or telephone review from an AAT representative.
    a) A review:
    • gives you the opportunity to meet or speak to one of our AAT representatives who can help you with the
    AAT’s Guidelines and Regulations for Members in Practice and the Guidelines on Professional Ethics
    • has a quality assurance aspect which helps to enhance the reputation of AAT members and supports our ongoing efforts for increased recognition on your behalf
    • is useful for the AAT as we can learn from the exercise by identifying common issues which guide us
    towards providing increased support for members in practice
    • helps the Licensing Panel to form a clear understanding of your practice, your working procedures and any problems you may face.
    We will normally give you at least four weeks notice of any review visit or telephone review.
    b) The notice will include:
    • the name of the AAT representative
    • the format of the review visit or telephone review
    • how long we expect it to last. The length of a review visit will vary but we aim to carry out most visits in one day. A telephone review will be a maximum of two hours
    • an explanation of what will happen after the review.
    Our representative will contact you before the review and will provide you with the list of practice administration records that you will need to provide.
    c) After the review:
    • our representative will produce a report for us to consider. It will summarise the action our representative took during the review, including any documents reviewed and any issues discussed with you, and it will contain our representative’s observations and comments
    • a copy will also be sent to you so that you have the opportunity to comment on the report 17
    • the report and your comments will be passed to the Licensing Panel for its consideration and you will be
    advised of any follow up action that is necessary
    • in some cases the Licensing Panel may decide to arrange a second review to check that any agreed action has been carried out. In these cases the same procedures as the first review will apply. You may be asked to pay the costs of a follow up review.
    If you would like to discuss the Guidelines and Regulations for Members in Practice and/or the Guidelines on Professional Ethics with our representative on a one-to-one basis you are entitled to ask for a visit but we would
    expect you to pay the costs.

    Regards

    Dean
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    I agree with Steve. As a professional body the AAT should be seen to ensure ethical and professional guidelines are met by their MIP's.
    After all, we are essentially the 'Face' of the AAT.

    I'm sure that MIP's would welcome mandatory reviews and it would also be a good time to plan/assess any CPD requirements.

    Interesting that no one has come forward yet who has had such a review?

    Sharon
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    Interesting that the AAT do have a review procedure, though wholly by choice.

    I would have thought members in practice would benefit from mandatory reviews as they aren't necessarily used for error spotting, but also could be seen as a tool to improve areas which MIPs feel they are weak on.

    Certainly ACCA firms have to submit at least one audit file per year for "cold review" by an independent reviewer and confirm they have undertaken this by signing a declaration on the firm's annual return. Non audit jobs are similarly reviewed by both ACCA and a third party. These reviews help the firm's internal quality control procedures as it highlights both the file preparer's and the firms weaknesses and strengths. If AAT MIPs are not subject to such reviews also, then how can they adequately assess their strengths and weaknesses?

    I mean we can all punch numbers into a calculator but my reasoning for this thread was mainly to highlight that there are accountants out there (AAT qualifieds as well I'm afraid) that are not up to an adequate standard and lack even the most basic knowledge. Over the years when we have taken over clients from another agent (AAT MIPs, ICAEW firms, ACCA firms) I have been appalled at the standard of some accounts produced by individuals and firms and I can only conclude that this standard is achieved through a sheer lack of experience, CPD and regulation.

    I understand that the AAT has now imposed mandatory CPD on its MIPs, though I don't think that CPD in its entirety is enough to help a MIP identify their strengths and weaknesses.

    Kind regards
    Steve
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:MIP Licences

    Discussions such as this, and the previous one started by Steve, in my mind always come down to ethics.

    I cannot confess to know much about the ACCAs procedures but the ICAEW Practice Assurance scheme is relatively new and, although firms are supposed to be subject to a review once every 6 years, I suspect in practice this is probably a little optimistic on their behalf. I worked for ICAEW firms for 10 years before becoming an MIP and not once were they subject to an external review, other than perhaps a JMU visit which all DPB firms are subject to.

    The AATs monitoring policy has been clearly covered in this thread and, although none of us regular contributors have been subject to a review, I am aware of at least one MIP that has and I believe the review procedures used by the AAT are very similar to that of an ICAEW compliance visit.

    We have all taken on clients who have been subject to woeful advice given by former advisers from all professional bodies. I doubt any professional body can boast greater standards than another.

    The question is really how to combat this situation?

    Practice Assurance schemes and monitoring will certainly help raise awareness.

    Many people are calling for the term 'accountant' to be a protected term for CCAB members only. I think this will do little to help.

    I think it comes down to training in ethical standards. When I was studying ICAEW exams many moons ago, my training partner had to sign my training record saying I had received internal training on ethics - that was it! I believe students now have to complete an interactive CD, but again this knowledge will not be very well retained.

    I believe ethics should be taught 'better' by focussing on how ethical standards help you and your business as an MIP, rather than coming across as restrictive and telling you what you cannot do. Ethical training, in detail at least, is also probably best kept for when you wish to become an MIP rather than at the student stage where other principles are more relevant.

    AAT do not have the resources to complete a detailed and regular monitoring visit to every MIP, this is why there is much more reliance on taking responsibility for your own actions by assessing your own ethical standards, levels of competence and appropriate CPD.

    Perhaps poor advice can never be avoided and instead the bodies should concentrate on educating the market (our existing and potential clients) on how to know whether they are receiving a good service.

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