Does anyone know if you can submit an online '64-8' without a UTR? It says in the help box that you can use the service with a UTR or PAYE reference, but when I try entering the PAYE reference (or leaving the UTR box blank) it brings up an error message.


  • JodieR
    JodieR Registered Posts: 1,002
    This little problem is now becoming a bigger problem...
    I use 'Ftax' to submit tax returns and I've just found out that I can't submit a return without a UTR, so I'll not be able to use it for this client now, and if I can't set her up online then I'll not be able to use HMRC's software either.
    I know that if she pays her tax on time that the late filing penalty will be reduced to zero, but does anyone know if there's anything I can do to avoid it being issued at all? Would I be better submitting a paper return, or waiting for a paper 64-8 to be processed and then submitting online?
    The client in question has rental income for the first time in 2007/08 which is why she now needs to complete a tax return, but she hasn't notified HMRC of this income so no return has been issued.
  • groundy
    groundy Registered Posts: 495
    I have had a couple of clients this month were we did not hold UTR as a paper return had been submitted previously just using the NI number. We use IRIS personal tax and this also will not let you submit a return without UTR. I think it is a requirement of HMRC rather than software.

    I have contacted the clients and informed them they will need to contact HMRC and ask for UTR. It will not be given over the phone but I have had a few succesful repsonses in writing within a couple of days.

    I think HMRC would treat a paper return is a late submission now. Also it was my understanding that the penalty was for late submission of the return and the payment date had no bearing but I may be wrong at that one.
  • Sue
    Sue Registered Posts: 217 🎆 🐘 🎆
    Hi Jodie

    There is someone on Accounting Web asking the same question. One of the responses there was to use a dummy UTR of 9999999999 and to draw attention to it in the additional information box.

  • Dean
    Dean Registered Posts: 646
    This may help:
    "HMRC has introduced a fast track UTR process for SA Returns for this financial year. This service is specifically for those who were self-employed during 2007/08 but who were not registered with HMRC. "

    Unique Taxpayer Reference (UTR) Fast-track

    To help our customers to file their self assessment tax returns online this financial year, we have been working very closely with our agent colleagues in the Working Together Steering Group. As a result, we are introducing a fast-track UTR process for those who were self-employed during 2007/08 but who have not yet registered with HMRC and received a UTR.

    The fast-track will be available from Monday 8th December 2008 to the end of January 2009 and can be only accessed using the Helpline number on 0845 915 4515. The Helpline is open from 8am to 8pm, Monday to Friday and from 8am to 4pm, Saturday and Sunday.

    If you use this service we’ll aim to post your client’s UTR within 5 working days.

    Who should use the fast track?

    This fast-track route should be used where a UTR is urgently required. In the main this will be where members of partnerships have not notified HMRC of their liability and the partnership needs to meet the filing deadline for the partnership return of 31st January 2009. To avoid slowing down processing times, do not use the fast-track service unless urgent.

    Please note, the fast-track provides no guaranteed turnaround.
    Filing a return late because your client does do not have a UTR will not normally be accepted as a “reasonable excuse”.


  • JodieR
    JodieR Registered Posts: 1,002
    Thanks sooooo much everyone!! :thumbup1:
  • claudialowe
    claudialowe Registered Posts: 275
    Beware of using 99999 99999 as a UTR - I tried this last year and it failed HMRC checks and got bounced back at me :thumbdown:

    Luckily it didn't matter then, as paper returns could still be submitted.

  • JodieR
    JodieR Registered Posts: 1,002
    Sorry to bring this up again, but I've processed this client's info now, and all that it is, is she's got a P60 showing a salary of around £20k, and during 07/08 she bought a few properties to let out but has made a loss.

    Should I
    (a) submit a return online using 999999999 reference (and hope it doens't get regected)?
    (b) submit a paper return, as there surely can't be a late filing penalty if no return was issued and no tax due? or
    (c) get her to phone HMRC on Monday and ask them to issue her a UTR and 07/08 return and wait for that to come through before submitting anything?

    I've got end of Jan brain-rot. Can't think any more!
  • claudialowe
    claudialowe Registered Posts: 275
    Try (a) and if that fails go for plan (b) - wait for the penalty in early March (warn the client first) and then appeal against it.

    My understanding is that the penalty cannot exceed the tax due - therefore no tax = no penalty.


    PS - is it just me or are the email notifications not coming through again :thumbdown:
  • burg
    burg Moderator, FMAAT, AAT Licensed Accountant Posts: 1,441
    I have a similar prob with a partnership, they never registered as self employed and have only done so about 5 days ago to try to get a UTR.

    I have tried using the 99999 99999 option on PTP but it gets returned as failed. Are rules the same on partnerships for limiting the late filing penalties to the tax due? Both have refunds you see!

  • Orry L.Clayton
    Orry L.Clayton Registered Posts: 4 New contributor 🐸
    All these people not registering as being self-employed. I wish I had £100 to throw away like that.
  • deanshepherd
    deanshepherd Registered Posts: 1,809
    Penalty for late filing of Partnership Tax Return is £100 per partner, regardless of whether any tax liability arises or not.

    Probably too late for the Fast Track UTR process.
  • burg
    burg Moderator, FMAAT, AAT Licensed Accountant Posts: 1,441
    They have allready done the fat track UTR about 10-14 days ago, they are chasing today

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