Who has to work with someone they can't stand?
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But there are many, many intelligent people who follow religion that are educated enough to know their own minds without being brainwashed by any church or God. Denial of this is simply ignorance on the non-believers part as they can't usually reconcile the difference between highly conscious self belief and that of forced belief.
My sister-in-law found religion about four years ago. She's one of the highest qualified marine biologists in the country but had some sort of thunderbolt experience that she won't talk to me - a non-believer - about as she thinks I'll mock (which I won't). Kind of makes me wonder if she had a visitation as she's far too self-aware and uber-intelligent for me to simply label 'misguided'.0 -
Religion should be a way of teaching values by which we as humans should live our lives. There are arguments both for and against a "God" but in the last 100 years, there have certainly been more against than for.
The best one I heard was on the BBC News website a couple of months ago about a group of people who reckoned that the world being round was actually an American conspiracy, and that actually the world is still flat!0 -
Still flat?!?! Hmm think I've just shot myself in the foot there!0
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There are arguments both for and against a "God" but in the last 100 years, there have certainly been more against than for.
The best one I heard was on the BBC News website a couple of months ago about a group of people who reckoned that the world being round was actually an American conspiracy, and that actually the world is still flat!
Well, I don't normally go to church but I'm pretty sure those who do spend their time there singing, rejoicing and generally loving each other. How can I call that 'evil'? It's those non-believers on the outside that are busy beating each other up with fists, boots, bottles or whatever comes to hand so the 'Christianity is evil' argument is pretty much redundant these days. Homer hates Ned and we laugh but why?
Well, in your defence Adam, Lincoln is pretty flat...0 -
Lincoln isn't, haven't you climbed the hill recently? Lincolnshire on the other hand...! Although don't forget the Wolds.
It certainly is flat in the fens though - hence the District Council name of South Holland. My home town of Boston apparently has one or two places sat at 6 metres below sea level!
In general you are right, religion is not evil. The problem is people are and that's where the violence comes from - people interpret their Holy Books to suit their own ends. And Christianity is one of the bad boys - Holy Wars, Moors vs. Christians in Spain etc.
As I said, people should live by the messages these religions teach as a bare minimum; perhaps if they did the world would be a better place. For those who want to believe, who are we to stop them? It's only wrong when they try to stop us believing what we do.0 -
Holy Wars, Moors vs. Christians in Spain etc.
Yes, but isn't it ironic that non-believers can forgive the Germans for the Holocaust of less than seventy years ago yet those same people can't forgive the Christians for conquests from several hundreds of years ago?
Anyway, haven't been to Lincolnshire much. Used to go to Skeg when I lived in Mansfield as a young 'un. And there's a real name. Mansfield. The only place in the UK where real men are grown in the wild. None of this feminine fluff. So what's Scotland all about? And Wales? Manchester? Burrrrminnngum? All useless.0 -
Yes, but isn't it ironic that non-believers can forgive the Germans for the Holocaust of less than seventy years ago yet those same people can't forgive the Christians for conquests from several hundreds of years ago?
Anyway, haven't been to Lincolnshire much. Used to go to Skeg when I lived in Mansfield as a young 'un. And there's a real name. Mansfield. The only place in the UK where real men are grown in the wild. None of this feminine fluff. So what's Scotland all about? And Wales? Manchester? Burrrrminnngum? All useless.
But that's people. Full of double standards and conflictiong opinions! Too much media influence as well but that's a different debate!
Haha Skegness eh? As the posters from yester-year say, "Skegness is Bracing"!0 -
At the risk of hi-jacking this thread....I have to disagree you. Whilst what people do at church is not 'evil', their opinions are the cause of much evil. They are usually against gay rights, abortions, stem cells, contraception etc, all things that cause hurt and suffereing, if not evil. Africa for example, is in an AIDS epidemic at the moment, but christians (and other religions) will not allow their followers to use condoms, putting them and their children at much greater risks. Whilst they look all happy-clappy to the outside, their opinions are somewhat misguided and adoption of those opinions will cause the world to be even worse than it is now, imho.Well, I don't normally go to church but I'm pretty sure those who do spend their time there singing, rejoicing and generally loving each other. How can I call that 'evil'? It's those non-believers on the outside that are busy beating each other up with fists, boots, bottles or whatever comes to hand so the 'Christianity is evil' argument is pretty much redundant these days. Homer hates Ned and we laugh but why?
People will always find reasons to fight each other - rayce, class, sex, politics, greed etc - but religion just provides one more excuse, imho. There are plenty of clever, good and moral people who are christians and plenty of athiests who are clever, good and moral. There are plenty of wicked, nasty, evil christians and plenty of wicked, nasty, evil athiests. However; "Evil men will do evil things, but it takes religion, for good men to do evil".0 -
LondonMatt wrote: »"Evil men will do evil things, but it takes religion, for good men to do evil".
I must remember that quote; that sums up my earlier point completely.0 -
I don't think it is ironic really. You have to look at what ideas caused the two events. The idea behind the Holocaust was racial superiority, ie Nazism and we have in no way forgiven the Nazis for the Holocausat. Nazi ideology has been left in the past (for the most part anyway). It is routinely criticised and its supporters completely ignored from public debate - and rightly so.Yes, but isn't it ironic that non-believers can forgive the Germans for the Holocaust of less than seventy years ago yet those same people can't forgive the Christians for conquests from several hundreds of years ago?
The crusades on the other hand, was caused by the ideologies of christianity - Jeruselam must be christian. This idealogy is still with us today, followed by hundreds of millions of people. Its leaders are respected and appear in public debates. American leaders can not get elected without professing obedience to this idealogy and it is these American leaders that have the most sway on the fortunes of present day Jeruselam.
So no, it is NOT ironic that we have forgiven Germans but not christians. Germans are no longer Nazis, but christians are still christian0 -
You are talking about people in positions of great power, some of who abuse their control over the masses, especially in less educated parts of the world. I also did stress the differences between conscious and forced beliefs earlier on in this thread. Religion in itself is not evil but some of the zealots who control certain parts of it are, and even then you'd have to question their true beliefs and virtuosity. Was Hitler a perfect example of the master race, Stalin and Mao role models for communism? No, because they couldnt, were unable to or simply didn't want to adhere to their 'beliefs' once in a position where they didn't have to.
Sudden power, whether political or religious, can corrupt and turn previously decent men into despots and monsters but it doesn't necessarily mean the underlying fundamental beliefs of religion or politics are flawed.0 -
Sudden power, whether political or religious, can corrupt and turn previously decent men into despots and monsters but it doesn't necessarily mean the underlying fundamental beliefs of religion or politics are flawed.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but I disagree. Sudden power doesn't change previously decent men into monsters. They must have always had an underlying badness in them.0 -
fatandforty wrote: »I'm sorry but I disagree. Sudden power doesn't change previously decent men into monsters. They must have always had an underlying badness in them.
Now to introduce some complete works of fiction, if you believe JK Rowling in HP and the DH, Dumbledore was corrupted by power. I don't think anybody can say what they will be like if they suddenly had power, it would affect us all in different ways.0 -
LondonMatt wrote: »but christians (and other religions) will not allow their followers to use condoms
That's not true, Methodists support contraception and even abortion in some cases. I think it's only really C of E and Catholic christians that 'forbid' abortion and C of E supports contraception :huh:0 -
Now to introduce some complete works of fiction, if you believe JK Rowling in HP and the DH, Dumbledore was corrupted by power. I don't think anybody can say what they will be like if they suddenly had power, it would affect us all in different ways.
True to a certain extent but I do feel that bad people are attracted to the church, scouts or into teaching or politics even because it is a good place to hide. Not that they were good people turned bad.0 -
Yes, but that's why I said 'can' as opposed to 'will' and it would generally simmer beneath the surface so they would have previously seemed decent on the outside to all and sundry. It's the seizure of power and control that often brings the monster to the fore.0
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That's not true, Methodists support contraception and even abortion in some cases. I think it's only really C of E and Catholic christians that 'forbid' abortion and C of E supports contraception :huh:
Infact I think the Pope recently decreed that contraception (ie condoms) was acceptable in places like Africa due to the AIDS epidemic. But that is a one off concession I think!0 -
Contraception isn't allowed because (according to the catholic church) you shouldn't be doing it for pleasure - just to make babies!! No babies - no pleasure.0
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Yeah and because you should be married when you're doing it, it doesn't matter if you have babies. So do Catholics have lots of sex and lots of babies or very little sex and few babies? :huh:0
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fatandforty wrote: »True to a certain extent but I do feel that bad people are attracted to the church, scouts or into teaching or politics even because it is a good place to hide. Not that they were good people turned bad.
So you're saying that a subconsciously dark person would be influenced to a place that gave a potential for a position of power? I can see your point, but I still maintain that power could change anyone; and until the power is accessed, the degree of change can't be guessed at. If people believe what they are doing is "for the greater good", their actions can be as a result of a delusion, rather than a bad streak within them...0 -
I think a lot of them use contraception and spend forever feeling guilty and confessing.0
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I think it's marvellous that millions of people can still consciously slam religion for admittedly murderous crusades that happened hundreds of years earlier (though they did break God's law) yet unthinkingly voted the Labour goverment back into power only a couple of years ago, thus helping sustain the two illegal wars we're currently embroiled in.0
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No, its not. Apparently, the US government only gives aid to certain African countries on the basis that they teach abstinance only. If they teach about condoms and the like, they don't get aid. That's because Bush (and loads of Republicans in the house) were practically elected on the back of fundamentalists and they therefore hold a lot of sway.That's not true, Methodists support contraception and even abortion in some cases. I think it's only really C of E and Catholic christians that 'forbid' abortion and C of E supports contraception :huh:0 -
So you're saying that a subconsciously dark person would be influenced to a place that gave a potential for a position of power? I can see your point, but I still maintain that power could change anyone; and until the power is accessed, the degree of change can't be guessed at. If people believe what they are doing is "for the greater good", their actions can be as a result of a delusion, rather than a bad streak within them...
True and a very interesting point. But along the same note I also disagree that playing violent video games turns kids into killers. There must have been something not quite right in the first place.0 -
LondonMatt wrote: »I am not. Ask your sister, or her church priest, where they stand on abortion, gay rights (marriage), contraception etc.
Well, she's busy dunking a couple of suspected witches right now but I'll get back to you when she's done, okay Matt?0 -
Oh no! Don't bring up Iraq! This thread has been hi-jacked once already, lolI think it's marvellous that millions of people can still consciously slam religion for admittedly murderous crusades that happened hundreds of years earlier (though they did break God's law) yet unthinkingly voted the Labour goverment back into power only a couple of years ago, thus helping sustain the two illegal wars we're currently embroiled in.0 -
Yeah and because you should be married when you're doing it, it doesn't matter if you have babies. So do Catholics have lots of sex and lots of babies or very little sex and few babies? :huh:
I believe the Catholic view is that sex is solely an act of pro-creation; carnal desires are sinful and therefore do not exist within marriage and so in theory, pregnancy would be dictated by how much the adults wished for a baby. If you didn't want a child, you wouldn't attempt pro-creation.
So I guess you have to make up your own minds according to the family size! However, that is the perfect Catholic world. In reality, I'm sure even devout Catholics would be tempted by some form of contraception (even if only the rhythm method, which is also in theory outlawed).0 -
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I believe the Catholic view is that sex is solely an act of pro-creation; carnal desires are sinful and therefore do not exist within marriage and so in theory, pregnancy would be dictated by how much the adults wished for a baby. If you didn't want a child, you wouldn't attempt pro-creation.
So I guess you have to make up your own minds according to the family size! However, that is the perfect Catholic world. In reality, I'm sure even devout Catholics would be tempted by some form of contraception (even if only the rhythm method, which is also in theory outlawed).
Do not rely on the rhythm method - it does not work.0
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