Does anyone think the same?

Bluewednesday

There was a letter in the AAT magazine this month regarding people who had been caught cheating in their exams only getting a rap on the knuckles.

What I can't understand is that accounting bodies are supposed to be upholding standards, any students who take exams knows cheating is wrong!! So why let them carry on being students, I just don't understand it and the answer the AAT gave just didn't cut the mustard for me.

Am I on my own here?

Monsoon

Anyone cheating in professional exams is not professional. You just don't do it. This isn't school! Surely there are ethical issues here?

I don't think a rap on the knuckles is acceptable, anyone blatantly cheating should be either kicked out, or made to take a formal reprimand and pay a fine (a few hundred quid, not loads but enough to make them sit up and take notice) if they want to stay in.

MoneySavingBank

Second Chance!

None of us are angles here. So, everybody deserves a second chance I think!

Primble

I completly agree. we have worked hard so why should those that don't, get let off so lightly? in a way it degrades the qualification

Money savings bank posted at the same time as me. I don't agree with their thoughts

Monsoon

Primble wrote: »

I completly agree. we have worked hard so why should those that don't, get let off so lightly? in a way it degrades the qualification

Agree.

I assume they have to re-sit the exam, but that's not enough.

MSB, this is a professional qualification. Cheating isn't an accident, it's a deliberate act. What does that say about someone's calibre and character? Possibly that they aren't competent enough to pass an exam and so resort to cheating, or that they are lazy. Neither is acceptable in an accountant.

Primble

I've struggled with exams, had to resit them a few times but i worked hard and i think in a way that makes me prouder of what i have achieved.
whoopsie i cheated is not an option. they should be banned from all professional qualifications

Rinske

I quite agree here too. Then again, I have not cheated in any exams, not even high school and I think it is unacceptable in all cases.

That said, I do think high school cheating should be treated differently then something like cheating on the AAT exams and I think for the AAT making them pay a good fine or possibly even kicking them from the AAT is only fair.

Would you really like to hire someone who passed their exams by cheating? If they don't have the knowledge then, they won't have it later either.

I know it said in the magazine that the exams would be declared null or whatever and they need to resit, but that doesn't really seem like a reason to not try again, not to mention, how do you know they haven't tried before and got away with it?
I found it very light punishment for what they actually did.

Primble

If you cheat at high school i think you just get a disqualified exam and then you carry that with you forever

i may be wrong though

JaffasGirl

I think its utterly ridiculous. How can people who have cheated and shown a complete disregard for the qualification be allowed to remain members, when people are being refused even student membership because they have made mistakes in the past and have credit agreements.

People who cheat should at the very least have all exams they have taken be declared null and void. Not just the one they have cheated on. Because as Rinske said, who knows if they have done it before and gotten away with it.

Rachel

I sat exams to better myself, in terms of job and money. To cheat in such exams means that in a way they have stolen something they are not entitled too.

I was annoyed in an exam once when we were told to put pens down and the girl next to me continued - nothing happened to her.

The reason for the exam in question should be zero and not allowed to take it again for a year.

PAMDILL

I agree with Rachel, Primbles etc. I don't think a rap on the knuckles is good enough. If that person then goes on to work and can't do the job because they didnot learn anything studying and only passed through cheating it is not going to reflect on the rest of us with the qualification.

coojee

It's the same as the AAT extending the deadline for completing levels under the old standards. Everyone has known for over a year that they had to be done by 30th June and then with about a fortnight to go the AAT suddenly decided to extend the deadline to 30th September because lots of students hadn't managed to get the backsides in gear to get it all done. This is a professional qualification and in business a deadline is a deadline you can't just go extending it willy nilly.

JaffasGirl

Is it that really the main reason? I thought it was more to do with providers not marking and returning the projects and assessments quick enough. Certainly been enough people on here complaining about it!

uknitty

coojee wrote: »

It's the same as the AAT extending the deadline for completing levels under the old standards. Everyone has known for over a year that they had to be done by 30th June and then with about a fortnight to go the AAT suddenly decided to extend the deadline to 30th September because lots of students hadn't managed to get the backsides in gear to get it all done. This is a professional qualification and in business a deadline is a deadline you can't just go extending it willy nilly.

This is not strictly true Coojee, I couldn't get my "backside in to gear" any quicker seen as how I had a baby in November

I signed up for AAT 3 in March and found out I was pregnant later that month. I couldn't sign up for the new standards in March and my training provider didn't offer me the option of transferring to the new standards. It came as a massive shock to learn that the "flexible learning" course I had signed up to now had a deadline imposed on it. Especially when I had been told the benefits of studying AAT as a distance learner would be I could do unit by unit and take a break from it to fit in my life commitments.

So all things considered I think I did a pretty good job of getting all my units submitted by April ( even travelling 30 miles to Liverpool to sit prof ethics 2 days before my due date. ). I've worked full time up until 2 weeks before baby arrived, returned to work in April to undertake an unpain internship in an accounts practice. I have done nothing *but* get my backside in gear !

"They couldn't get their backsides in gear" is quite sweeping statement. There are probably other people who have circumstances such as serious illness or bereavement that have prevented them from sticking to their planned timetable.

It is also worth bearning in mind that part of the reason for the extension is because the training providers are so backed up with their marking. I submitted my unit 15 in April and it has *still* not been marked - as a result of this I would not not have had time to resubmit work if there should the unit come back as not competent - meaning that I fail the whole year on one paper despite sending it to my training provider 2 months before the deadline.

There is whole world of difference between extenuating circumstances meaning students struggle with deadlines, and deliberately cheating on an exam. I really don't think the two things are the same at all.

ETA I know we have had a similar conversation before so, I'm sad to see such a sweeping statement being made again. Yes of course professional standards are important - BUT professionals are also human beings not robots, and from time to time life happens. (Would you seriously consider a missed deadline owing to bereavement or serious illness to be unprofessional ?) I've always managed to maintain really strong relationships with clients because I appreciate their needs as individuals. Deadlines matter, but understading the needs of people around you (which often is more than just a deadline) is just as important.

Monsoon

Agree with uknitty, the deadlines thing is a totally separate issue and i really don't see the harm in extending the standards deadline, after all, people are still completing the same qualification.

Primble

the deadlines are purely because learning providers can't get their arse in gear. only papers handed in before the original deadline count, they are just allowing more time if you need to do extra

Rachey

Completely agree, it won't be the students but the providers.

Newbie

I am a branch committee member and this was raised recently seems to be a hot topic, ps I agree cheating is totally unacceptable

Bluewednesday

I'm really glad it's not just me, as someone has said previously you know you are cheating therefore there is no integrity, professionalism etc - sound familiar. Anyone who cheats should be expelled from the association.

coojee

uknitty wrote: »

This is not strictly true Coojee, I couldn't get my "backside in to gear" any quicker seen as how I had a baby in November

I signed up for AAT 3 in March and found out I was pregnant later that month. I couldn't sign up for the new standards in March and my training provider didn't offer me the option of transferring to the new standards. It came as a massive shock to learn that the "flexible learning" course I had signed up to now had a deadline imposed on it. Especially when I had been told the benefits of studying AAT as a distance learner would be I could do unit by unit and take a break from it to fit in my life commitments.

So all things considered I think I did a pretty good job of getting all my units submitted by April ( even travelling 30 miles to Liverpool to sit prof ethics 2 days before my due date. ). I've worked full time up until 2 weeks before baby arrived, returned to work in April to undertake an unpain internship in an accounts practice. I have done nothing *but* get my backside in gear !

"They couldn't get their backsides in gear" is quite sweeping statement. There are probably other people who have circumstances such as serious illness or bereavement that have prevented them from sticking to their planned timetable.

It is also worth bearning in mind that part of the reason for the extension is because the training providers are so backed up with their marking. I submitted my unit 15 in April and it has *still* not been marked - as a result of this I would not not have had time to resubmit work if there should the unit come back as not competent - meaning that I fail the whole year on one paper despite sending it to my training provider 2 months before the deadline.

There is whole world of difference between extenuating circumstances meaning students struggle with deadlines, and deliberately cheating on an exam. I really don't think the two things are the same at all.

ETA I know we have had a similar conversation before so, I'm sad to see such a sweeping statement being made again. Yes of course professional standards are important - BUT professionals are also human beings not robots, and from time to time life happens. (Would you seriously consider a missed deadline owing to bereavement or serious illness to be unprofessional ?) I've always managed to maintain really strong relationships with clients because I appreciate their needs as individuals. Deadlines matter, but understading the needs of people around you (which often is more than just a deadline) is just as important.

But as I said to you before, your provider should have advised you to transfer to the new qualification earlier rather than put you under the pressure of trying to complete within an unreasonable timescale.

Extenuating circumstances are one thing. Students realising at the beginning of June that they've still got 3 units left to complete and expecting their providers to jump through hoops to organise the logistics of doing 3 mocks and 3 live papers in one month is a totally different thing.

coojee

Primble wrote: »

the deadlines are purely because learning providers can't get their arse in gear. only papers handed in before the original deadline count, they are just allowing more time if you need to do extra

No, the extension is for sitting assessments. The AAT have extended the deadline from June to September, so if your provider allows it, you can now still sit assessments under the old standards up until September and the provider has until December to report it. Providers have always had until December 2011 to mark and report papers so any provider that was telling their students they had to sit the assessments before the end of April so that they could get them marked and reported was just wrong.

My point is that it's not a professional way to go about things to say, because there's lots of you who haven't been able to complete before the end of June then we'll give you a bit longer to get it all done. It's not fair on the students who have busted a gut to try and get it all done, or on the students who have already transferred thinking they hadn't got enough time to get it done.

uknitty

My training provider isn't allowing any new submissions, only resubmissions of papers that were marked not competent.

Budgie

I have much to say about the last minute rush for old standards but I'll pass cos it's a long story and not very interesting!

Regarding the cheats, I think the AAT should kick them out, because if they're willing to cheat in their exams, what kind of lies and fraud will they get up to when they're working? Just like if you steal from your employer, should you get a second chance? No, you should be fired! Don't get me wrong I genuinely believe in second chances but not in a professional environment requiring professional qualifications. It's a joke studying Professional Ethics for your course if you don't heed them in the exam or in your profession.

payrollpro

Interesting debate and I am pleased to note that the vast majority of respondents agree that cheaters should not be permitted to resit nor continue as members of a professional body. As the last post pointed out, how on earth can you cheat, take an assessment on "Ethics" and continue unhindered? It staggers me that someone would actually have the nerve to do it. I do not feel such people belong in a professional society and certainly have no place in our professional body because I don't feel I want to be associated with them.

However, I am afraid, as I trundle swiftly towards retirement, this is what we have to put up with, this is society 21st century style. A society where cheats prosper and where no one is allowed to fail anything, they are always "not yet competent" - what happened to telling people they are not good enough?

We are too soft as a society I feel and there is a distinct reluctance to tell it like it is but before anyone accuses me of looking at the past with fondness I want to say that I find many learners end up confused by the lack of firmness, certainty and specificness of the messages given to them.

When I recently studied ATT I got a real shock to be told I had failed the personal tax exam (damn those old rules on capital gains tax, I never did get the point of those) but I knew exactly where I stood, I wasn't good enough and to rectify the situation I had to do it again and work harder! Not sure I would have had the same feeling if someone had instead said oh very well done, your just not yet competent - what does that mean? do I have to do a little more to get through, or a lot more, or what?

Time to get back to basics I think, however I am not going to hold my breath waiting for it because I don't think it will happen.

Payrollpro

Paul C

not trust worthy

Being an accountant means that you should be a trust worthy person of good charactor. Who can be trusted with financial information and financial resources.

Cheating in an accountancy exam surely means they are not suited to be an accountant?