Pub Claim for Dog?
T.C.
Registered, Tutor Posts: 1,448 Beyond epic contributor 🧙♂️
I have a client who runs a pub and has asked if he can make a claim for his dog as a guard dog? Anyone has experience of this one? Views appreciated.
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I really think not. Because its also a pet, its like the work clothes argument.0
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Good point! I will use that to reason to disallow. Thanks.0
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I've heard of it done before.
Depends on the breed. The one I saw was an American Bulldog. Their accountant let them put him through.
It also depends on motivation. If they were going to get a Spaniel, but realised a dog could double as a guard dog and got a Rottie, I would allow at least 50% of the costs (they were going to get a pet, but they chose a dual-purpose breed). The dog would have to be kept somewhere suitable to his job (e.g. sleeps in the bar area, as opposed to in their bedroom). If you can show genuine guard dog use, I would definitely allow it.
Remember, police dogs will still get love and fuss. Just because the dog is also pet does not mean he does not work. Everyone is allowed time off, too ;-)
If they have a chihuahua......
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mmm... I will check!0
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I don't think you can apportion a guard dog.
It's either a guard dog or it's a pet.
I know people that keep working dogs and they aint friendly!0 -
There isn't really alot of cost involved so I am going to disallow on the grounds that it is "a pet" too. Thanks for your opinions anyway.0
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deanshepherd wrote: »I don't think you can apportion a guard dog.
It's either a guard dog or it's a pet.
I know people that keep working dogs and they aint friendly!
I'm just musing aloud in general here. And I happen to have strong feelings on dogs
I would bet money that if I lived in a pub, and let my mastiff sleep downstairs, he would be a darn fine guard dog. He is the gentlest, softest dog you could ever meet. But trigger his instinctive guarding instincts and he's terrifying.
I honestly do think you can get both.
Mastiffs, rotties, pit bulls, etc all have reputations, yet as family dogs with the right owners they can be really gentle, loyal and loving. That does not stop them being dogs, specifically guarding breed dogs, and they instinctively know when to start guarding their beloved family.
The type of guard dog I'm thinking here is not the typical working dog who patrols security fences - that's different (and wholly deductible). But I do genuinely think that a dog can be chosen who will have a job to do, but who can be a good member of the family too. It's down to intent in getting the dog and I would be happy to argue it on the merits of each specific case.0 -
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The breed or temperament doesn't matter. By default, if there is any private use (e.g as a pet) then that is mixed use and not allowable at all.
The only time mixed use expenditure (of any kind) can be claimed is where you can demonstrate to HMRC that the business and private use can be apportioned with reasonable accuracy.
I cannot see any acceptable basis for apportionment myself but it is of course all down to risk. Risk of an enquiry.. Risk of inspector picking up those costs to check.. Risk of getting a lenient inspector who is happy to accept such an apportionment..0 -
I'd have to be seriously convinced by the owner, but if a dog of a suitable breed for guarding was bought/homed as a guard dog, I would consider putting it through. As Dean says, that's down to risk attitude of the client and the accountant.
Going off on a hopefully related tangent, we discussed a while back the use of home as office and claiming 7 days a week not 5, as it's still an office even though it's not actually being used at the weekend.
If the dog was acquired for security, then any 'private use' would be incidental, even if it gets to be a pet when it's not working - neglect it and you have a problem on your hands, so some pet style or otherwise reasonable interaction would be required.
An alarm system is not in use when premises are occupied, only when people leave. It doesn't lose any deductibility because sometimes it's not switched on.
On that basis I'm talking myself out of any apportionment, as long as the intent was to get a guard dog, and not a pet who just happens to be a suitable breed, I'd put it through. 'Private use' incidental to purpose.
Monsoon, who likes big dogs, and a good natter with HMRC if it comes to it.0 -
If the dog was acquired for security, then any 'private use' would be incidental, even if it gets to be a pet when it's not working - neglect it and you have a problem on your hands, so some pet style or otherwise reasonable interaction would be required.
Agreed. Would we be having the same discussion if we were talking about a farm dog I wonder? Probably not. But they get a 'pet' lifestyle too at the end of the working day.
Where I used to work we had a farmer who wanted to claim for his cat, on the basis that it worked as a mouser on the farm. Cue a general query call to HMRC who said they would allow this!0 -
If the dog was acquired for security..
That is, as they say, the big IF!Monsoon wrote:An alarm system is not in use when premises are occupied, only when people leave. It doesn't lose any deductibility because sometimes it's not switched on.
It's not about being on or off. It's whether, whilst off, it is used privately rather than for business.0 -
Where I used to work we had a farmer who wanted to claim for his cat, on the basis that it worked as a mouser on the farm. Cue a general query call to HMRC who said they would allow this!
Yep, farm dogs and cats are both pretty essential to the job.
As for the lazy mutt that sits in front of the pub fire breaking wind while customers sup their beer..!0 -
deanshepherd wrote: »Yep, farm dogs and cats are both pretty essential to the job.
As for the lazy mutt that sits in front of the pub fire breaking wind while customers sup their beer..!
With dogs or cats on farms they are performing a specific job. Allowing a dog for a pub, pretty much opens it up to enormous amounts of self employed people putting their dog as a business cost.0 -
deanshepherd wrote: »That is, as they say, the big IF!
No argument there!
It's not about being on or off. It's whether, whilst off, it is used privately rather than for business.
Define "private use" of a dog.
If the dog was bought for security, any "pet treatment" while not in business use will be incidental. You can't just shut it in a kennel and leave it when it's not needed.
As long as he guards the bar at night, he's allowed to sit about farting all he likes.deanshepherd wrote: »As for the lazy mutt that sits in front of the pub fire breaking wind while customers sup their beer..!
It does all hinge on the initial "if" of course.
IF a dog is acquired as security, as a conscious choice to, say, an alarm, then it could well be a business cost, depending on the specifics.0 -
Monsoon,
I wonder if it might be useful to read up on the VAT rules for animal feed as this is quite specific in terms of the breeds of dogs for which animal feed is permitted for VAT recovery and for what reasons.
It seems to me that at no time is a business allowed to claim back any VAT incurred in respect of a dog working as a guard dog and whilst VAT rules do not automatically translate into income tax I think this is a good indication of the way in which HMRC's thought processes would work.
Payrollpro0 -
Thanks PP
That's surprising.payrollpro wrote: »It seems to me that at no time is a business allowed to claim back any VAT incurred in respect of a dog working as a guard dog and whilst VAT rules do not automatically translate into income tax I think this is a good indication of the way in which HMRC's thought processes would work.
I wasn't thinking with VAT in mind on this thread, but presumably the gross "general running costs" of a security dog are allowed against IT/CT (not in office, can't look it up right now)?
Edited to add: there is no VAT on working dogs' food, its usually zero rated.0 -
payrollpro wrote: »It seems to me that at no time is a business allowed to claim back any VAT incurred in respect of a dog working as a guard dog..
Do you have a link to back that up? I thought the only rules pertaining to animal feed was whether the seller could zero-rate. I didn't realise there was anything in the legislation about recovery.
As much as HMCE and IR like to give the impression they are one organisation they are still very, very different and rules for one often differ for the other.
IR state guard dogs can be capitalised and subject to capital allowances here.0 -
Define "private use" of a dog.
If the dog was bought for security, any "pet treatment" while not in business use will be incidental. You can't just shut it in a kennel and leave it when it's not needed.
A dog kept at home.
I have seen an inspector disallow a guard dog in it's entirety for, amongst other things, protecting a property that is both the home and the business (e.g. pub or shop with flat above..). Duality of purpose.
There was no argument there was a business benefit to having a dog guard the property but there was also a personal benefit to that protection which couldn't be accurately apportioned. Hence disallowed in full.
Unlike IR, HMCE are generally more susceptible to reasonable apportionments so I don't believe the partial VAT claim was ever a problem.0 -
deanshepherd wrote: »
I know people that keep working dogs and they aint friendly!
I disagree, I have a working Guide Dog and she's soft as muck!!
As for the Guard dog thing, I agree that if they are treated more like a pet then it'd be disallowable however, if they were kept in a yard specifically as guard dogs then it would be more plausable?0 -
Interesting thread.
Have you asked the pub's insurance company what their view of the dog is?
I have heard of cases where insurance payout has been refused, because the dog died and nobody told the insurance company of dog's death and consideration of insurance cover included the presence of the dog!!!!! TRUE
Dog = insurance expense
Similarly, I had a farmer client whose swimming pool costs were put through as he kept large hay and straw stacks close to the swimming pool and that was considered insurance too!FMAAT - AAT Licensed Member in Practice - Pewsey, Wiltshire0 -
I can't believe this thread is still going on - I just have one other point then. I know I started this thread with the idea of the "guard dog at the pub", but if I did allow this, then surely I would have to allow the "guard dog at the builders house", which guards his shed and van full of tools!0
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I can't believe this thread is still going on - I just have one other point then. I know I started this thread with the idea of the "guard dog at the pub", but if I did allow this, then surely I would have to allow the "guard dog at the builders house", which guards his shed and van full of tools!
Its an interesting thread, its debates like these that really make you think about the accounting principles!
Thats the point I wondered about, every self employed person suddenly has a guard dog!!!0 -
Similarly, I had a farmer client whose swimming pool costs were put through as he kept large hay and straw stacks close to the swimming pool and that was considered insurance too!
Considered by who? The farmer?
Can't see a revenue inspector allowing that. How is a swimming pool going to guard anything, let alone straw which has a pretty negligible value to a farmer anyway?!0 -
deanshepherd wrote: »Considered by who? The farmer?
Can't see a revenue inspector allowing that. How is a swimming pool going to guard anything, let alone straw which has a pretty negligible value to a farmer anyway?!
It was the fact that the fire brigade had access to a large supply of water if it went up in flames! Client was actually a hay and straw dealer who had more than the average farm full of straw.
(PS. I only did his book-keeping in those days - another accountant did his accounts/tax)
It wasn't there to attack and drown prospective burglars or in a guard capacity FMAAT - AAT Licensed Member in Practice - Pewsey, Wiltshire0 -
It was the fact that the fire brigade had access to a large supply of water if it went up in flames! Client was actually a hay and straw dealer who had more than the average farm full of straw.
{...}
It wasn't there to attack and drown prospective burglars or in a guard capacity
I was wondering!!0
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