ATT Thoughts
wildgoose1uk
Registered Posts: 200 Dedicated contributor 🦉
Just a thought..... If we do ATT can we class it as CPD and put it against tax or is that pushing it a bit?
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Comments
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Hi
Absolutely you can, just as anyone doing ACCA/CIMA/ACA etc can claim it as CPD providing you can show it does relate to your work.
Neil0 -
Not pushing it at all.
Yes, it's allowable against tax if you work for yourself and yes, it's CPD.
Absolutely, definitely, and I'll have fisticuffs with anyone who wants to argue
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Hmm..
Is it updating of existing skills or acquisition of new skills?
..you decide!0 -
I'll see what develops, then tell you what I did!
Regards
Dean0 -
I think we can guess..0
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Oh fab! I thought it was disallowable and had been treating it as such. Will sort that out then
) 0 -
If you trade through a Ltd Company, it's more likely to be allowable, even if it's giving you new skills.
If you're self employed, then if you are already a tax practitioner and you are just building on what you know to improve your knowledge, then it's an allowable expense.
As an opposite example, if you're AAT qualified but just bookkeeping, due to confidence/ experience issues, and thus aren't a tax practitioner, but are self employed, then it will be gaining additional skills and thus disallowable.
I would argue that if you took a tax module at AAT, and do tax returns day-to-day, then certainly the core modules of ATT are allowable. Depending on what optional module you take will depend on whether that is a new skill or allowable.0 -
If you trade through a Ltd Company, it's more likely to be allowable, even if it's giving you new skills.
If you're self employed, then if you are already a tax practitioner and you are just building on what you know to improve your knowledge, then it's an allowable expense.
As an opposite example, if you're AAT qualified but just bookkeeping, due to confidence/ experience issues, and thus aren't a tax practitioner, but are self employed, then it will be gaining additional skills and thus disallowable.
I would argue that if you took a tax module at AAT, and do tax returns day-to-day, then certainly the core modules of ATT are allowable. Depending on what optional module you take will depend on whether that is a new skill or allowable.
Fantastic explanation Monsoon
If you can explain tax issues like that your clients will love you! 0 -
If you trade through a Ltd Company, it's more likely to be allowable, even if it's giving you new skills.
Why is it?If you're self employed, then if you are already a tax practitioner and you are just building on what you know to improve your knowledge, then it's an allowable expense.
Define "already a tax practitioner"As an opposite example, if you're AAT qualified but just bookkeeping, due to confidence/ experience issues, and thus aren't a tax practitioner, but are self employed, then it will be gaining additional skills and thus disallowable.
Here you're linking to the MiP licence, so I agree that expenses incured to add to your licence wouldn't be allowabe.
Are you defining a "tax practitioner" as an AAT qualified?I would argue that if you took a tax module at AAT, and do tax returns day-to-day, then certainly the core modules of ATT are allowable. Depending on what optional module you take will depend on whether that is a new skill or allowable.
Even the (now) e-Assessments?
Regards
Dean0 -
Why is it?
Employee relationship.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim47080.htm
Note I said "more likely" - there are exceptions as per the link.
Err, someone who works in tax, gives tax advice and generally can do tax? i.e. not a newbie.Define "already a tax practitioner"
Quite.Here you're linking to the MiP licence, so I agree that expenses incured to add to your licence wouldn't be allowabe.
Not necessarily. Not all MAATs have done the tax modules and even those who do might not have the requisite experience to be a tax practitioner. Likewise someone might be an accountant and tax practitioner and hold no formal qualifications.Are you defining a "tax practitioner" as an AAT qualified?Even the (now) e-Assessments?
Sure, why not? They are Law and Ethics. That's not learning new skills, that's perfectly fine CPD and in and of itself. Furthermore the law and ethics is just backbone stuff and doesn't actually give new skills, just builds on existing things. And indeed ticks a box to say you can do this dry, boring stuff. Not that I'm not looking forward to said e-assessments in a few months or anything...
It sounds to me like you don't want people to claim expenses against tax if there appears to be room for a grey area. I'd rather advise my clients there's a risk, and that HMRC might huff about it, but that I'd be confident arguing their corrner, explain the potential consequences if HMRC disagree, and then ask them if they want to claim it against tax or not. I work for the client, not for HMRC.0 -
The point I’m making is that you are talking about “new” skills. The skills have to be “work-related” and acquired in “relevant” employment:Employee relationship.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim47080.htm
Note I said "more likely" - there are exceptions as per the link.
Here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM01220.htm &
Here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM01230.htm respective.Err, someone who works in tax, gives tax advice and generally can do tax? i.e. not a newbie.
Here the point I’m making is that you have to have regard for your own overall circumstances. Just because you may well be a “tax practitioner” doesn’t automatically give rights to deduction.Not necessarily. Not all MAATs have done the tax modules and even those who do might not have the requisite experience to be a tax practitioner. Likewise someone might be an accountant and tax practitioner and hold no formal qualifications.
Probably showing my age but I never covered any law or ethics at AAT level. In terms of the work we do it IS a fundamental skill. It’s something we all think is dry and boring but when asked a question about these skills most people don’t give the correct explanation and I’m sure you will feel differently in a few months...Sure, why not? They are Law and Ethics. That's not learning new skills, that's perfectly fine CPD and in and of itself. Furthermore the law and ethics is just backbone stuff and doesn't actually give new skills, just builds on existing things. And indeed ticks a box to say you can do this dry, boring stuff. Not that I'm not looking forward to said e-assessments in a few months or anything...
Do you not think that adding the letters ATT after your name is capital in nature as per your link above?It sounds to me like you don't want people to claim expenses against tax if there appears to be room for a grey area. I'd rather advise my clients there's a risk, and that HMRC might huff about it, but that I'd be confident arguing their corrner, explain the potential consequences if HMRC disagree, and then ask them if they want to claim it against tax or not. I work for the client, not for HMRC.
In terms of Ltd’s what you have to consider is its members. In the case of ‘small’ company’s it’s members’ are generally also the director so you can’t just consider the “employee” relationship and if there is more than one member they’re normally ‘connected’ so this might be of interest:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM35660.htm
Specifically:particularly where it brings into existence a recognised qualification
I’d say the ATT is fairly well recognised. It also adds more weight in calling yourself a “tax practitioner”.
Regards
Dean0 -
This is definitely one open to debate
My comments on this thread have been general - as whether something like this is deductible will depend entirely on the individual's circumstances. I'm well aware of the various issues surrounding Ltds which is why I said "more likely" as I wasn't interested in getting into the nitty gritty of it like you have. I've seen the other BIM you link too, when researching this issue for a client a month or 2 ago.
The Manuals are of course HMRC's interpretation and if we don't agree, we are well within our rights to go back to the legislation and derive an alternative interpretation if we think we can make it stick.
To pick up on a couple of your points:
Ethics is now in the AAT syllabus but wasn't when I did it either. The AAT have always had an ethical code, however, and for me to suddenly 'learn ethics' 7 years into my career... well, I'd like to think that I won't learn anything new that is vitally important I don't anticipate the law aspect to give me anything capital in nature. I know law and ethics are important, and I'm not knocking them, but I'm still bored to tears by it, and I've not gotten the study pack yet. I've passed all 3 tax exams first time and, for me, all the e-assessments are is a box ticking exercise to get my ATT. I know, the examiner dislikes that attitude, but that's how it is for now. I will be interested to see if the study actually gives me anything really useful. Arguably that therefore makes them capital in nature as for me, their sole purpose is to get more letters after my name - whereas the purpose of the tax exams was to do some awesome CPD and generally improve my existing skills.
To add to your comments about tax practitioners, had I taken the ATT 5 years ago as soon as I passed my AAT exams, the expenditure would not be deductible (for my circumstances, at least) due to my level of knowledge (or lack thereof!). As I'm doing it now, when I know a lot of it already and it is not significantly adding to the areas in which I practice, I consider it a deductible expense. If I took the Inheritance Tax and Trusts module (about which I know next to nothing short of the basics) then that would be a new skill for me.
As to the letters ATT carrying more weight... On another thread a lot of us agreed that most clients don't give a stuff what letters we have after our name. I don't anticipate the ATT getting me any more work; to me it's excellent CPD (professional development) and a nice personal achievement, but all the while my business remains a general practice (which is the plan for the next 5 years at least) I don't see the ATT enhancing it, or me, in a capital way.
Can I claim the cost of a certificate frame as an office expense please? :thumbup1:
Now, Dean, hop off your devil's advocate chair, make a cuppa and claim some tax deductible expenses man!
PS: does this count as my aforementioned fisticuffs?! 0 -
Devil's advocate indeed..
..I am assuming Dean did claim ATT as CPD in his own books..!0 -
Not pushing it at all.
Yes, it's allowable against tax if you work for yourself and yes, it's CPD.
Absolutely, definitely, and I'll have fisticuffs with anyone who wants to argue
That doesn't appear "general"! Which is exactly why I've gone to "nitty gritty" especially and somebody is about "to sort that out" based on this post.
The rest of your post appears to be justifying your own position and that's for you to decide so no further comment.
Regards
Dean0 -
deanshepherd wrote: »Devil's advocate indeed..
..I am assuming Dean did claim ATT as CPD in his own books..!
As CPD, of course! As a tax deductible expenses well that's another story...
Regards
Dean0 -
Gosh!... I didn't mean to start a long debate. After consideration I think it is allowable. I am already in practice, licenced for tax and also hold other professional qualifications.
Many thanks for all input people.0
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