No SA Tax Returns since 2006! Is this normal?

Antoinnette

Hi everyone,
I have just got a new client who has not filed his SA returns since 2006. He has had multiple reminders from HMRC and has basically racked up the fines. He worked as a sales man for various companies and was being paid mileage expenses; they were paid at 0.17 a mile so I think he can claim back the balance from HMRC. He does have a lot to claim back and that's basically what his SA consists of. However he hasalso lost his P60s for 2007 and 2009 and has no record of his income for these years. I have asked him to ask for duplicate P60s for these years at least so I can work it out but he parted on not so good terms with the company and is reluctant to do so. My questions are:
1. If I call HMRC will they give me his records for these years as I am registered as his agent
2. Have you ever had clients like this is and what are the cahllenges
3. All the tax filing softwares I am looking at only go back as far as 2008. Its not worth buying a new software for each year. I would like some advice on whether HMRC's own software will file returns as far back as these.

Thanks

peaman

So, he is not self employed! Did he only request SA returns so he can claim the mileage? Did all the companies only pay 17ppm, does he have all the details?

If he did, could you not just send in forms P87. I think the filing deadlines for these is 4 years after the year end, so you won't be able to go back as far as 2007.

It may work out better for him and easier for you that completing all the returns.

You can ask HMRC for copies of the P60's, not sure if you would get them, they are not as helpful as they used to be.

Ask HMRC to send you a paper return for 2007.

Antoinnette

Thanks Precise,
He seemed to have filled a tax return 2004-2005 and got a refund which cancelled out previous fines (It seems to be the way he operates, racks up the fines and cancels them with a rebate)
He registered as self employed in 2010 and only did it for nine months before going back to employment. again no return has been filed for this. His expenses exceed 2500 for some of the years so my understanding is the P87 will not work for these years. I guess he will just have to pay the fines for prior to 2007. He has been sent paper returns for the last four years so I have these. I guess I will use the ones I have for 2007 and do the rest online.

peaman

Yes, you are right the P87 is limited to £2500.

I believe he should only receive late filing penatlies for the 2011 return, as before this the old rules apply and the penalty cannot exceed the tax due. As there should be no tax liabilites, there should be no penalties, as he found out when he submitted the 2004-05 return.

It always amazes me how people can ignore all the HMRC letters/penalties for years, but I have seen it so many times!

Antoinnette

I have never seen anything like it...obviously I don't have that many clients lol. But it seems letters from bailiffs are not a deterrent to adopting the ostrich lifestyle:laugh:

Fireraiser

I've got a similar situation. New client (subby) came to me in May needing his 2010-11 SA doing. £30 / day penalties focussed his mind. This I did and wrote a nice letter to HMRC asking if they could please, please, please waive the penalties as he was due a refund so they hadn't lost any money and it was his first offence. This tactic has worked with other clients.

Got a refusal letter back pointing out that he also hadn't filed for 2009-10! He hadn't told me about that. Client tells me he was employed on PAYE for whole of that tax year. Unfortunately he doesn't have any payslips, P60 or P45. I phoned HMRC to see what records they held for him for that year. The answer was "nothing", no employer had filed any PAYE info for him.

I have sent the client back to his employer for that period to ask for a copy of P60/P45/March payslip/anything, but I'm not holding my breath. Assuming the client isn't going to be able to supply me with any records to work from, what would be my best way of dealing with this? What do HMRC do in these circumstances?

Thanks

Antoinnette

I would be interested in any answers you get for this one Fireraiser...mine doent have a P60 from one of the years and claims his bank account was closed so cant get bank statements either. Its all rather puzzling:ohmy:

peaman

I have seen this online...

Getting a copy of your P60

If you have lost your P60, you should first approach your employer to ask them if they can provide you with a copy.

Employers are obliged to keep records of pay for three years and so they should be able to provide you with a copy of your P60 for the last three years. The P60 will be clearly marked as ‘duplicate’.

HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) cannot provide a duplicate of your P60.

If you need a copy of your P60 from more than three years ago, it is unlikely that you will be able to get one. Your employer may be able to provide you with a ‘statement of earnings’ on company headed paper which should act as a replacement for a P60.

Alternatively, you should contact your Tax Office. Your tax office will be able to provide you with alternative, official information regarding the amount of tax that you paid.

If the employer doesn't have a copy of the P60, they may have the P11 details. Or, if you know the employers reference you can contact the tax district and ask them for the details.

jilt

Antoinnette wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I have just got a new client who has not filed his SA returns since 2006.

I had a new client last year, his last return filed was for 2004/05 so yes it happens

jilt

Precise Tax wrote: »

HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) cannot provide a duplicate of your P60.

Alternatively, you should contact your Tax Office. Your tax office will be able to provide you with alternative, official information regarding the amount of tax that you paid

I rang HMRC about a client who had lost her P60 last year, they sent me a letter detailing her gross pay and tax paid and employers reference number so that I could enter the employment on her tax return. Only after grilling me for as much detail as possible regarding the employment though

*Jo

My partners previous employment wouldnt provide him with a P60 despite repeated requests and even when we called HMRC to complain they told us they couldnt' do anything and he had to go back to the employer. As I had suspected it turned out the employer had been deducting PAYE and NI but not paying it over to HMRC. Luckly for my partner as I had insisted he demand payslips at least (previously the employer hadnt provided these either). He has now had a letter from HMRC saying he hasn't paid any NI for that year surprise surprise. We are going to reply with copy payslips, copy letters to employer and his administrators (yep the company went bust) and inform HMRC that when we tried to report the employer for non providance of P60 they didnt want to know.

Just wanted you to know its not always the employees fault they dont have the correct paperwork

Jo

Antoinnette

Its great to hear everyone's experiences...its never black and white is it?
It doesnt help that my client goes for ages without answering emails or calls and generally leaves me in limbo when I have loads of questions:001_unsure:

*Jo

I really respect you ones who set up alone as members in practice. It sounds like it can be a nightmare!I work in industry so don't have practice experience to set up alone but actually don't think I'd like the hassel. It must take great determination at times so hats off to you

Fireraiser

Thanks for the suggestions.

As I expected I haven't heard anything back from the client. I'll chase him tonight and, if no joy, I'll try calling the tax office. I would have though that the Agents Helpline would have access to any info that the local office has, but maybe they don't??

Does anyone know what the likely outcome is if there's no way to find the required info? Do HMRC make and assessment (guess) based on other tax years?

Antoinnette

Its a nightmare situation isnt it? I am sure you should be able to get a statement from the agents helpline. If you have the employer's reference number it should help to find his income statement from the local tax office.

RAS

I think if you havent got a huge amount of experience, then you should try and walk away from this client. It has all the alarm bells ringing. The danger is that you could spend hours and hours chasing him etc, only for him to get into a deeper mess and then for him to try and turn the blame on you. And probably not pay you at the same time. Be careful.

peaman

Antoinette, it appears that you have got yourself a 'bad' client.

I agree with RAS, it may be a good idea if you can find a way of ditching the client.

In my experience, client's that ignore multiple HMRC letters, rack up fines, and are difficult to get hold of, do not change!

If you stick with him, make sure he is aware of all the work you are having to do, keep notes of all conversations with him and HMRC and send him interim fee notes to cover your ongoing work.

Good luck!

Antoinnette

I have just got a letter in the post today from the HR department of his last employer. Apparently the P60s have been archived but they will get it to me in a couple of weeks. That is a bit of relief because it looks like he did do something about it and they are available after all. Phew....I had just started drafting the letter of disengagement to be honest.
I hope Fireraiser gets some response from his client soon as well. Let us know how you are getting on (I am very interested)

Fireraiser

Just spoke to him on the phone. He has, and I quote, "found the 09-10 paperwork" and promised to bring it to me on Wednesday. Fingers crossed!