Swerving the tricky bits

System
System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
edited June 18 in AAT member discussion
Hello everyone.

I've started out with my own practice and so far so good as I have been concentrating on book keeping and management accounts.

My experience is in managment accounting which customers seem happy with as they know where they are and it has cut accountancy fees down. I've been doing loads of CPD to bring myself up to speed with statutory accounts and taxation but lack the confidence that comes with experience.

At the moment I am losing business because people don't seem to see AAT as a 'proper' accountant (how do others deal with this ?)

I am thinking about offering a whole service with a view to subing out the tricky bits at year end to a chartered accountant - has anyone else taken this approach ? If so, any tips on how to be taken seriously and how I should approach this ?

Thanks and have a good bank holiday.

Comments

  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Hi there,

    I'm afraid I can't help you with your enquiry, but must admit I have experienced the same problem.

    I have been told before that 'I'm just a book keeper', yet this person was my FD and I had to tell him what a subsidiary account was, and I've had problems with an ACCA FD posting a journal to a control account and then telling him that he couldn't do that! After giving my reasons he then asked 'well where should I put it?'
    Don't think the answer I wanted to give is allowable on this site! Loved it when I was proved right - he wouldn't speak to me for a week!

    I suppose I could say that you could detail what you are capable of - do you have any letters of recommendations? Letters of thanks?

    Personally, having spoken to my current FD, I think AAT go a lot deeper than some of the 'higher bodies - who tend to detail on theory - judging on my FD - who is CIMA. Sorry if I have upset anybody with the last remark!

    But you know you can do the work - speak with conviction and follow this up!!

    Anyway either they want the work done or they don't?

    I have had people thank me for explaining the items in real terms - one I had was 'we only trust you - nobody else' I was really touched by that.

    Also, get them to visit the AAT website - this is a real qualification that deals with the work at the real nitty gritty. All the 'mess ups that you have to work out!'

    You can do it!!! Sell yourself - your portfolio
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Also, as I'm doing the year end for the company with my FD just perusing it, is there something you or I am missing here?
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Thanks Ruby, didn't know if I would get any response (did you really write it at midnight ?).

    You are right, the customers that I have got are really pleased that they know where they are financially on a monthly basis and get information that is clearly understandable.

    The fact that they are getting the benefit of this for about £15 an hour seems to be the selling point compared to comparable chartered accountants fees (does anyone know what the average accountants rate is ?)

    The problem is that all of the 'start your own business' guidance tells people to get a fully qualified accountant - from what I have seen so far this is actually the worse thing you can do as a good AAT mip can provide a lot more practical help as well as dealing with the statutory requirements at a premium rate !

    All the same I still like the idea of passing the draft accounts over at the year end - saying that my understanding is that we (that is anyone) can do the accounts for a small company (5M turnover !) as long as there is no audit requirement.

    For all the confidence that I could muster I still think customers would be more forthcoming if I could demonstrate a working partnership with someone more qualified :!: :?:

    Good luck with your FD - it's a situation which sounds familiar !


  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Hiya,

    yes it was midnight - workaholics r us! Glad that I was of some help. Why not try to get involved with some breakfast mornings in your area? These business networking meetings are very good, and also, if you put some work to someone else, the knock on effects are?????.......... scratch my back and..... also credit by word of mouth by your current clients works wonders!


    Went it to work on Saturday - I must be mad or my FD is a taskmaster! Good luck with all that you do.

    Chris :)
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Hi Sevren

    In answer to your question re the average accountant rate. The Accountant I use to work for, who had no qualification, was charging himself out at £60 per hour.

    It sounds as though you do the same sort of work as I do. I found a Chartered Accountant and when I go to a new client if they are looking for an Accountant as well, I recommend her and she does the same for me if she goes to someone looking for a bookkeeper. We do let clients know we are two separate businesses working from home but that we have several clients that we share and therefore we know how each other works. We also say that by working separately we don't have the same overheads as a larger firm with bookkeepers and accountants in the same office.

    We do also have clients that have different bookkeepers and accountants because obviously not everyone is looking for a new accountant and bookkeeper at the same time.

    The other thing I watch is that clients try to get you to advise them on things to save themselves money on asking the accountant. I am very careful when answering these questions and often say they will need to confirm with their accountant. I email the accountants with anything I find unusual in the accountants and when I want them to make certain decisions. After all they are the ones signing the accounts at the end of the day.

    Sue

  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Sue has a really good set up here. As a bookkeeper I have yet to find one particular accountant I can work as closely with as Sue descibes, but I do make a point of introducing myself to the accountant of each of my new clients. This way I can begin to build a strong working relationship with the accountant. liaise on friendly terms at year end, and ask for technical advice if I'm really stuck.
    In one particular instance I discovered that the accountant charged the client when I asked a question. I thought this was unreasonable, and so did the client, especially when the query was regarding an error they had made on the fixed asset register. However, if I suspect this might happen with another accountant, I ask them directly if they intend to charge.
    On a vaguely related note, has anyone ever heard of this? My cleint was told by his accountant that there would be a £50 charge for every error in the books! I think this accountant must have been teasing, but when I asked him he was a bit cagey. If I present the acocuntant with a completed and reconciled set of books, with TB P&L and BS, what lengths will he go to to find these income generating errors?
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Hi Guys,

    I'm a practice accountant and my firm welcomes competent bookkeepers such as yourselves. It does seem, however, there are Accountancy practices who charge "premium" rates for the simple ease of preparing statutory information from books/records which have already been done.

    I'm glad to say my firm doesn't and never has took advantage of such a situation.

    £60 per hour does seem reasonable for a Chartered Accountant undertaking work, however, £50 to correct/find mistakes in books is totally unacceptable and unorthodox. How can you quantify such a mistake to be worth £50 to find?

    In defence of Practice Accountants, yes our fees can be quite high in comparison to others but we have the onus of signing off the Accounts/Audit Reports. However, in my experience, the bookkeepers have the arduous job of (a) locating the client when s/he conveniently disappears [usually at the year end] and (b) sorting through carrier bag loads of receipts.

    Kind regards
    Steve
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Hi Steve

    I agree that £60 per hour may be reasonable for a Chartered Accountant. But the Accountant that I use to work for that charged £60 per hour had no qualification other than experience and from what I have learnt since leaving him, he was seriously out of date. He used Iris and just ran the wizard to produce the tax returns, he wouldnt go back and make adjustments. He wasnt even following the money laundering regulations.

    This is one of the reasons I decided to hand work over to a Chartered Accountant rather than sign off accounts myself because after the way I have been taught, I now need to relearn how to produce accounts properly.

    Sue
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Hi Sue,

    You've taken the right action. The problem with some unqualified and un-regulated Accountants is that they are out of date. The fact that they are not qualified nor regulated means that they don't have to keep uptodate by virtue of CPD. There is nothing to stop individuals setting up Accountancy practices but I would have thought their PI insurance premiums would be far more than those of a qualified and regulated Chartered Accountant.

    Don't get me wrong, not all unqualified Accountants are substantially out of date but I still say that if you're working for a 3rd party individual who ultimately places reliance on what you do for them, you must be technically up to date and able to answer questions "on the spot".

    I know of a couple of Accountants (whom I shall remain anonymous) that charge over the top fees for what they do for client's, who aren't qualified AND often produce work of a sub-standard nature. This becomes apparent when our firm takes over a client and we have to re-state prior years due to incompetency!

    Kind regards
    Steve
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Steve
    I was delighted to read you comments, and especially to read that you acknowledge the work that we bookkeepers do. often it does all start with an unruly heap of documents. Hopefully once that backlog is sorted out, we can get down to the more inpoortant task of helping the client to gain control of their finances.
    I really hope Mr "£50 per error" was joking. I expect him to take my trial balance, (which will have been discussed in full and approved with the client), and present it in the statutory format,along with a completed the tax return and any relevant advice. May I ask some of the practice accountants on this forum to tell me how long they would expect to spend on this "year end" work if all the books are already completed.
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    On the assumption that the Trial Balance is well-balanced (as I am 100% sure would be the case with you) and relevant supporting schedules, i.e. bank reconciliations, fixed assets registers, VAT workings etc etc are provided then basically the job would take approximately 2 working days. This assumes a typical small Ltd. Co. reporting under FRSSE who's bookkeeping is of a very high standard and where the Accountancy firm knows the client and the bookkeeper. The two days would include putting a file together, preparing the statutory accounts and relevant notes and doing the associated tax work and providing the necessary journals to agree the opening balances.

    Disclaimer:

    Please note the above is an estimation only and must not be used as a definitive time span nor as a challenge for the actual time spent by Chartered Accountants performing year end work on your clients. Various Accountants will use different approaches/software/work methods which mean turnaround periods would vary.
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Hi There,
    It all comes down to AAT establishing that it is not an association for bookkeepers nor is it a feeder association for the CCAB bodies but an association in it's own right with it's own standing and profile with professional accountants as it's members and strive for recognition that members deserve in the market place and not accept the monopoly of the CCAB bodies with their own self serving agendas.
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    hello there
    in reply to your original post - are you sure you're marketing yourself to the right clients? I started out on my own a year ago and am now turning down work as I have so much. none of my clients are bothered that i'm not a chartered accountant, half of them don't even know the difference and the ones that do are relieved that I don't charge as much as them.
    All I did when I started out was go through the yellow pages & sent letters to small businesses. I sent about 150 letters and got about 10 replies, I also made friends with a girl in a similar position to me who passed on 'excess' work to me, and it's grown from there.
    I think having a chartered accountant to work with would have obvious advantages, but there's a lot of work out there that doesn't need it at all.

    Good luck with it!

    jodie
  • System
    System Posts: 100,534 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Swerving the tricky bits

    Thanks for all the contributions, it's been very helpful - I think that Jodie has probably hit the nail on the head, I think that a little more effort on getting the business in the first place and a little less worrying about the tricky bits will serve me well !

    Thanks

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