The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

Statistics also tell us that year upon year children are passing more and more exams with higher grades, therefore by extension, are becoming 'cleverer' than the generations they succeed.

However, those of us who are older, rarely believe this to be the case based upon the evidence presented to us by many of these youngsters who come along for job interviews with poor educational, communication and social skills and little to offer us as an employer.

Now, if we accept this as a truth - and many of us do - then we are directly refuting the same statistics mentioned in my first paragraph. Since these are government produced statistics, we can probably conclude in our own opinions that government surveys are often loaded and/or biased to gender support for future legislation.

As you say Dean, you haven't seen it in your accountancy profession, I have never seen it in retail or manufacturing and jdelboy has never seen it in the agricultural industry. So, it is entirely valid for us to question it's existence and/or scale since no-one on this thread has yet come up and offered countering proof.

Robert

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

In answer to jdelboys comment..

My apologies - I forgot your sample of 1 is more reflective of society than the ONS survey.


In answer to Roberts points..

I think it is the interpretation of statistics that is questionable, rather than the statistics themselves.

Inferring that the younger generations are 'cleverer' because statistically, more exams have been passed with higher grades than previous years is a bit of a stretch!!

Similarly, inferring that men are paid 12.6% more for the same work than women would be just as inaccurate an inference from those afore-mentioned statistics.

You cannot refute, however, that more exams are passed this year than last or that men receive a higher average hourly rate than women. What is up for discussion is what is the reason for these statistics and what, if any, action should we take in light of them.

As you say Dean, you haven't seen it in your accountancy profession..

Er.. I think you'll find I did.

it is entirely valid for us to question it's existence and/or scale since no-one on this thread has yet come up and offered countering proof.

I have experienced it, as has another poster with her experience in the restaurant trade.

Moving the discussion forward for a moment, regardless of whether we agree or disagree on the extent of the problem, what do you feel is right/wrong with the governments/employers policies with regard to tackling/promoting this issue?

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

That's a good point X5 but I think that would be similar to saying that waiters/waitresses are paid minimum wage by including the tips they receive from customers and employers paying them an hourly rate less than the minimum wage.

I don't think it is for the government (well, us as taxpayers) to make up inequality shortfalls made by the employers.

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

deanshepherd wrote:

I don't think it is for the government (well, us as taxpayers) to make up inequality shortfalls made by the employers.

With all due respect Dean, as a working class guy, I know lots of people who would take that on and not employ anybody other than white able bodied males, and the occasional leggy blonde, so this legislation is needed from the government, whether it is enforced is another issue.

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?


Dean sorry not a sample of one read the thread and dont pull pieces out of it that is an example of how some people are treated I can give you more if you like and as you read the stats from the national statics you will see the gender pay gap dropped and read on and it tells you more.you have your view I have mine Im not having ago at you as you are entitled to your opinion.



John

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

I may have miss read them. Just thought Id comment on what I thought you meant mate.

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

Sorry, Dean I misread your earlier comments, however I do think you need to clarify the discrimination you have seen. I'm sure you'd agree that fewer female than male partners by itself is not an act of discrimination unless there is a 'policy of intent' behind it. It may just be that the majority of partnerships are set up by males anyway. Unless you have direct access to certain records for the partners, how would you know it's outright discrimination? Partnership share/contribution could also play a part, couldn't it?

Rae has fleshed out her original post so I concede that perhaps that could possibly count as discrimination but then we'd have to admit that bar work is sometimes a discriminating industry anyway due to it's casual employment nature?

Of course, there are sexual dinosaurs still around, but my original point is that I've never met one, heard first hand of one and they're a dying breed anyway. So why is this still a major bone for governments?

Robert

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

Interesting aticle taken from accounting web.co.uk;

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=164997&d=1025&h=1022&f=1026

Male accountants threatened by women, says study
Nine out of 10 male accountants believe they have been adversely affected by attempts to create a more favourable working environment for women, new research reveals.
Recruitment specialists Careers in Audit found that many men working in the profession claimed that women were being promoted even if they do not deserve it. The resentment ran high despite 76% of male accountants backing the view that a 'glass ceiling' still exists which prevents women from progressing.

The reason for the glass ceiling, the study said, is more to do with the need for women to achieve a work-life balance than discrimination in the workplace. Two-thirds of all those surveyed gave the impossibility of raising a family as the main reason so few women make it to a partner in accounting firms.

Max Williamson, Careers in Audit chief executive, said: "While our research reveals strong ambition amongst women, it raises important questions. Initiatives to give greater opportunities to women appear to be resented by men, while many women who want to get to the top appear to be short of confidence in their own leadership skills.

"There is a lot of work to be done within the profession to iron out the mistrust, misunderstandings and differences of perception that currently exist between the sexes

"Climbing the corporate ladder requires sacrifice, irrespective of one’s sex, but there is no reason why it should be incompatible with raising a family. Solutions can be found if both senior management and female employees are willing to bend."

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?


What 'gender' experience does anyone have of successfully applying for a role, rather than one that is subject to promotion?

Does a potential employer view male or female applicants differently? 20 years ago possibly.

Much of an accountant/book-keeper's work is admin based. This was something that many sixth forms taught. I don't know of any of my male school friends that took that option.

With many college courses now covering administrative options, that situation has changed and opened up the job market.

Typing and admin has been replaced with 'computer skills' - removing any gender embarrassment.

In a previous job I had to recruit an assistant. I was 'guided' to employing a male applicant. However, the only one on the shortlist didn't have the experience - but ticked the box on the HR matrix.

I knew that I would have to pick up the slack on any work he couldn't do, so stuck my (high) heels in.

Gender bias or commonsense?

Helen

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?


If you give a worker five minutes to tell you about the positive things they experience in their daily routines, they'll probably struggle after a minute. However, give them the same time to tell you about the negative things and chances are they'll run out of time and you could fill pages.

Robert
The above is a true fact working in agriculture opened my eyes to that,some people it doesn't matter how well they are looked after they will still moan about something so minor but I suppose there is nothing quierer than folk sometimes.



John

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?

Well Helen, you're never going to get that pay rise now!!

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?



Marc's article makes an interesting read.

It seems us 'girlies' do know how to get a point across!

:roll:

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?


Page number and title is on front cover - sorry I didn't bring it back with me.

They spelt our names correctly!

:oops:


Edit: it's not in the on-line version yet because Malcolm took the morning off.

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?


It is very interesting.

I don't think any of the 'blokes' have been quoted - just some of the female forum members.

I think we all had valid points, but Marc's article had a tighter theme and as we know, some of the blokes find it hard to keep on topic at the best of times!

Helen

Re:The gender pay gap - does it really exist?


I could scan you a copy if you PM your email address.

Helen