Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

System
System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
edited June 9 in General accounting discussion
I have come across a petition to the pm by an accountant for legal protection of the title "Accountant".
Some may think of it as a bit self-serving but I signed on with the letters after my name and I recommend for other AAT qualified professionals to do the same.
The Link is http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Accountants

Comments

  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"


    Probably gonna make myself unpopular here but this is my own opinion so what the heck.

    You're right dildare - it is extremely self serving. I'm not chartered and nor do I use the term 'accountant', but I think it's ridiculous for certain groups to try and copyright a commonly used word of the English language. Plus, this is the AAT site, and as far as I'm aware even fully qualified AAT's still cannot call themselves 'accountants' but rather just mere 'accounting technicians'. Therefore, I think the majority of the people on here wouldn't be able to call themselves 'accountants' if this petition were successful. While I can admittedly see a need for controls of some form this just stinks of elitism.

    Is this just about protecting the title or more widely preventing people from offering accounting services if they're not judged competent enough by certification? I very strongly suspect the latter since there are numerous ways to get round the former. If so, what services should we then be prevented from offering? Everything from book keeping upwards? Well I guess I'd better quit now. Food for thought but surely if amateurs didn't botch things up as often as they (allegedly) did, then wouldn't there be as much work for the chartereds to pick up the pieces?

    Think I'm gonna start one for footballers and artists to stop playing and painting if they don't hold recognised certificates.

    Regards,

    Robert

    Unfortunately, I can't sign the petition - I'm not qualified enough for it.

  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    The petition does say:
    UNLESS THEY HAVE PROFESSIONALLY RECOGNISED QUALIFICATIONS

    Plus, if you look at the Members section of this website it says;
    Members in practice


    AAT-regulated accountants offering their services to the public

    Even more food for thought? Robert, I do take your point though. For that reason, I myself haven't signed the petition - I don't really want to 'shoot myself in the foot' so to speak. Although, I fully support the need to have the term 'protected'.

    Regards

    Dean
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    To add more food for thought...

    Some Institute of Financial Accountants (IFA) members like to point out that they are "Accountants" whereas we are "Technicians". However, by the IFA themselves recognise the AAT qual as equivalent to their Associate grade of membership.

    If the regulation/protection went through and the IFA maintained the term "Accountant" but AAT couldn't use such a title, would it be more of a case protecting the title alone rather than regulation of a profession since we would be qualified to the same level as IFA "Accountants"?

    I've heard numorous stories of dodgey accountants and all of them were qualified!

    Neil
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    Full marks to Robert on a point well made.

    The funny thing is that in my experience, customers don't really seem to care what you call yourself - the hourly rate and integrity seem to be the current requirements which puts mips in a very strong position.
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    I personally suspect this will happen in time. The main chartered institutes have mentioned this in publications and I think one day it will happen. I can see why they want to protect the term "accountant" but the terms Chartered Accountant and Chartered Certified Accountant are legally protected anyway (which in my opinion is what matters) so I'm not sure what it is they are actually trying to achieve. In Ireland they have protected the term "accountant".

    Certainly a number of qualified accountants I know are all for it and I think the majority of qualified are also for it (I'm sitting on the fence!!) They are under the concept that you aren't an accountant unless you're qualified in it by examination - which is true. Qualified by experience these days may not really carry much weight (in my opinion) because of the various CPD requirements that are being imposed on qualified accountants due to the sheer number of changes that occur within the profession. Experience is one thing but being on the forefront of change in regulations/tax etc is another. If it's not imposed on you there is a good chance you won't undertake CPD. Certainly before ACCA brought in their mandatory requirements it was optional.

    If it does get brought in I suspect the AAT will do nothing about it because an AAT qualified/MIP is an accounting technician when you look at the substance of the qualification. AAT is still widely recognised so what's the difference other than in name? We all still do the same type of job.

    Like I say I think it will come in eventually but after consultation with the various bodies (especially CCAB bodies) who knows!!

    Kind regards
    Steve
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    This debate comes up time and again on AccountingWeb and I have yet to see a strong argument for protecting the term.

    Many CCAB members spout that it is to raise standards and protect the public from unscrupulous unqualifieds providing poor service.

    In my experience poor standards span all the professional bodies and unqualified practitioners alike. Removing unqualifieds from the profession will do little to alleviate this problem.

    Most CCAB members I have seen wanting to introduce this legislation also want the term restricted to CCAB members. So where does this leave AAT, IFA, AIA, ATT and CTA members, to name but a few?

    In with the unqualifieds I suspect.

    What also for ICPA members? They are Certified Professional Accountants who must show 10 years experience in the profession, hold PI insurance and undertake CPD; yet will not have undertaken any formal examination. Are these conscientious unqualifieds also to be discarded from the profession?

    Protecting and enforcing a legal term is very costly and highly bureaucratic. I see the argument for protecting the term Doctor and Solicitor. After all.. life, death and civil liberties are pretty serious. But protecting the term 'accountant'? Someone who adds up and takes away..

    Why not protect the term builder? Having their house remain in one piece is far more important to most than getting their tax return right.

    As the term Chartered Accountant is already protected, I would suggest CCAB members would be better spent increasing the value of that term rather than trying to take over another.
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"
    deanshepherd wrote:
    But protecting the term 'accountant'? Someone who adds up and takes away..

    Not sure that's fair, Dean. I'm sure you do a lot more than add up and take away all day - I know I do.

    There's bound to be those that feel strongly about this issue but as I have said above, I'm not totally certain what the CCAB or the government or whoever are trying to achieve. I'm not totally sure if they did protect the term what non-qualifieds would actually be called. Does anyone know what they are called in Ireland?

    Ultimately, if I was to be asked to give a conclusion on this subject I would say that as long as an AAT/ACCA/ACA/CIMA/CIPFA/ICAI/TEABOY can do the job for a client/company to a high standard then what does it matter whether it's done by a qualified/unqualified/AAT qualified or any other qualified as long as anybody working performing public practice has adequate PI insurance.

    I'm sure given the state of the country today e.g. terrorism, hospital hygiene, civil wars, the yob culture just to name a few - that protecting the term accountant is somewhat low on the Government's list of priorities.

    kind regards
    Steve
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    Thanks Everyone,
    With your eloguent,articulate and pertinently argued points, I as a member of AAT feel satisfied that AAT members should not have any inhibitions about signing such a petition, not that I believe petition itself is well placed, or would or should achieve anything, although there should be some regulation, but that should not attempt to monopolise or eliminate competition from able and competent accountants worthy of their salt at the level they are practising.
    May there be though yet another school of thought who may argue that CCAB member bodies are powerful enough to regulate the profession and after all it is the professional bodies who sought after self regulation and have it.So what is the petition for?
    What of the arguement vis a vis doctors and lawyers.
    Well our GP does not compete with a specialist, a high street solicitor does not compete with a specialist barrister. So our average "accountant" -And I include within that not only the CCAB member body qualifieds- does not compete within the markets of top twenty firms who almost have monopolistic hold over a certain level of the market which if anything governments have been very unhappy about.
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    Steve, you are of course right that it is a little more to our jobs than adding up and taking away, but I sometimes think accountants, as 'professionals' rather than 'tradesmen' :wink: can sometimes overvalue the importance of what they do in the grand scheme of things.

    Areas of accountancy that are of higher risk to the general public (financial services, insolvency, auditing..) are already protected and highly regulated. I'm not sure that completing a Tax Return, for which HMRC seem to expect Joe Public to be able to do themselves, is of such high risk to the public to warrant legal protection.

    Remember, having a protected term is not about raising standards, it is about protecting the public in matters where the consequences of mistakes can be catastrophic.
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    I was having a read through this debate on accountingweb last night (sad I know but you can get engrossed in the reading). Let's put it this way, we are all pretty laid back on this site compared to some of them about this subject!!

    A couple of them on there have such strong views it makes me wonder it may not border on to being obsessed about it.

    As Dean says, in the grand scheme of things, when you consider there are more pressing issues to deal with does it really matter? I guess not.

    Kind regards
    Steve
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    To continue the debate;

    Are we also going to protect the term 'Tax adviser'?

    Would it mean, if you are regarded as an 'accountant', under a protected term you would not be able to provide tax advice? How many 'accountants' provide tax advice!

    Regards

    Dean
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    I don't think it matters what Title you try and protect, HMRC will deal with who ever they like. Until some one can get the Revenue to agree to only deal with nominated qualified accountants/advisers, you'll always be flogging a dead horse.

    Maybe all the respective CCAB/RQB bodies should stop bitching amongst themselves and get together to form a "Royal College of Accountants and Tax Advisors" with various entry levels according to qualification. Then the Revenue should undertake to accept returns etc either from the client direct or only from a member of "The College".
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"

    Dean,

    I'm sure I heard something a few months ago that HMRC were going to do something with tax advisers but the CIOT jumped up and down and I don't think they were going to pursue it. I may be wrong, but I do recall something along those lines.

    I think in 20 years time, you won't be able to breathe without permission! I mean nowadays, you can't smoke (not that that bothers me), they're trying to stop you drinking, they're trying to stop you driving, they're trying to stop you speaking (unless it's politically correct) and now they're trying to stop you calling yourself an accountant - what is this world coming to? :roll:
  • System
    System Posts: 100,537 🤖 Admin 🤖
    Re:Petitioning for Legal Protection "Accountant"


    As I hinted at earlier, I'm wondering what's the real problem here? Is the issue with someone simply calling themselves an 'accountant' or is it more to do with what these non-certified 'amateurs' are allegedly doing? If it's the latter and that in future only true 'accountants' will be allowed to do true 'accounts' work then I imagine more than a few two sole traders and small businesses might have a thing or two to say about this. What does an MIP charge? £15-25 per hour? An accountant? £100+ an hour? Our external accountants charge £180 per hour, the robdogs!

    As for the protected status argument, well the titles of doctor, dentist and solicitor are already legally protected but that doesn't stop the occasional rogue from calling himself one or prevent the fully qualified ones from committing acts of negligence or malpractice. If it's going to be protected then it will need an enforcement body set up to police it. The professions I mentioned earlier already have these but it still doesn't stop the rogues yet can only punish the honest.

    There are many names we can use to get round the title of 'accountant' such as financial controller, finance officer, accounts supervisor ad nauseum and I'm surprised the chartereds and certifieds are so het up about this. Anyway, whatever we choose to call ourselves, to our clients and/or our non-accounting bosses, family and friends we're still generally referred to as accountants regradless!

    Regards,

    Robert

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