Own practice - Practice v Industry

Neillaw · February 2017

Over the past few weeks the forum has received a lot of threads about starting their own business, the majority of these are coming from students who aren't yet qualified.

I don't think that a newly qualified person should be allowed a licence, there should be a period from qualification to application so they can gain the appropriate experience.

It would also seem that a lot of the thread answers state that Practice experience is a must, I've been in both practice and industry and disagree with this statement. I started in practice before moving into industry and then repeated the process.

I think that both sides provide their own opportunities:

Practice:
1. Accounts prep
2. Taxation
3. HMRC/Companies house compliance
4. Practice management

Industry:
1. Management Accounts
2. Cost base revaluations (probably worth 7.5k+)
3. Treasury work - (Loan applications etc)
4. Marginal Analysis

For me both routes provide adequate fee potential for people from either side of the fence.

TreadStone · February 2017

Delicately put as always

knightyo · February 2017

I wouldn't have been able to go it alone having only obtained the AAT qualification. I also wouldn't have gone it alone only having ACCA and no experience. It is all about the experience behind the qualification. We had a lady in our practice who had no qualifications whatsoever but had over 30 years accountancy experience and her knowledge was unrivaled. I came in as an apprentice studying AAT and she mentored me. Was bloody invaluable for me. I then worked in practice for years, studying ACCA until I switched to industry. I thought I was pretty good at what I did but then industry is a whole other thing too. You can see something on a page or in an exam and until you have the practical element of it in front of you, on a day-to-day basis, you can't really apply it. I remember my first job as an apprentice was dealing with barristers. I did well in my foundation exam but no-one tells you that wealthy barristers don't care about books. They shove everything into a carrier bag and hand it over at the end of the year. Also, as you know, its not just a case of doing their bookkeeping and that's it. There are rules regarding their accounts. If I had been out of practice doing this on my own as an AAT student I would have royally stuffed up someones accounts. I am totally all for people starting up on their own and would support anyone on here who needs advice about the process. But I would always state that you NEED to be competent and confident in everything you offer. Otherwise you run the risk of using up your PII Insurance in the first year.

Neillaw · February 2017

Thanks for the reply's.

I wanted to put this thread out for start-up's to read and reconsider their desire to go it alone while offering Accounts and tax services.

Experience is everything which is why I think AAT should place a ban on members becoming licenced until after a certain length of time.

Tax - the exam is just the start it's all about CPD.

I'm lucky as the majority of my revenue stream isn't accounts or tax based. I do more work with manufacturers on profitability of their businesses together with treasury work and basic book-keeping.

For me the qualification is starting to become a route for money laundering regulation.

knightyo · February 2017

Same as me @Neillaw. I do what I call 'basic' self assessments and the majority of my work is bookkeeping because I love it. Might sound pants but I genuinely enjoy bookkeeping, always have.

burg · February 2017

It is worrying at times. I'm more than happy to try and help those who are having a difficult time with one aspect of tax or accounts work or maybe that something not so normal and you want a second opinion.

However some of the standard of questions and then further responses to answers given do give cause for concern. I am only AAT qualified. I did do the majority of ACCA before resigning and have done some ATT as time allows. I would not consider my tax knowledge to be brilliant but it is sufficient for the majority of the work we undertake and 99% of the general work on a day to day basis. If it wasn't I would eventually fail as I would be found out.

The only way it can be improvde is by the AAT having a more stringent method of issueing licences to practice. There needs to be some form of test or more of a requirement for practical experience in any of the areas. I do not offer some of the industry related services such as performance analysis reports, management packs and the like. I keep it simple with basic management accounts with basic info, cash flow forcasts and similar. The reason... I've never worked in industry and these are not my skills. I wouldn't know how to do it best to add real value to the client. I would be doing myself and the client an injustice by offering such a service.

There is always the qualified V unqualified debate and when you see some of the questions that come up you do see why AAT members get a hard time sometimes. I believe we are qualified accountants (just not chartered) and we have our place in offering services to members of the public at a level that suits each individual. This is no different to ICAEW, ACCA and other bodies members. We need to uphold the value of the qualification. Otherwise what is the point???

Raising the requirements for new applications will start to solve the issue going forward but will not address the issue with some current members. The way I see this being improvied is by practice assurance review visits. I've read that these are meant to be carried out by AAT regularly. I've been a MIP since 2009 and I've never had a visit or any contact from the AAT as to how I run my practice. I would actually welcome such a visit as I don't believe I'm perfect. I'm certainly not doing anything illegal but there are most likely things that I could improve. Ideas on this would be welcome.

Maybe us existing full and fellow members and certainly MIP's should get together and put our concerns to council. The concerns certainly are that the qualification and the reputation of the AAT is being devalued. We as members have a right to ensure the AAT our doing the best for us and we should bring these matters to their attention.

MarieNoelle · February 2017

@Neillaw

I think it would be unfair to deny the licence to someone who has had 30 years experience in accounts and has just become AAT qualified. Maybe the application process should be different.

As for members asking questions, I'd rather they ask here than not ask at all. At least they understand they are either out of their depth or need to update their CPD. Judging by the small number of forum members it is worrying to think this is just the tip of iceberg.

I'd rather make a fool of myself on here and be corrected than not ask at all.

burg · February 2017

MarieNoelle said:
@Neillaw

I think it would be unfair to deny the licence to someone who has had 30 years experience in accounts and has just become AAT qualified. Maybe the application process should be different.

As for members asking questions, I'd rather they ask here than not ask at all. At least they understand they are either out of their depth or need to update their CPD. Judging by the small number of forum members it is worrying to think this is just the tip of iceberg.

I'd rather make a fool of myself on here and be corrected than not ask at all.

I agree with this but it does need improving.
The tip of the iceberg it is and so very worrying.

I also agree to some extent about making a 'fool' of yourself on here first.
The key part is FIRST.

Too many of the questions are where members are already acting and advising and 'winging it'. We should always apply the rule of do not take on work outside of your area of competency. Many don't seem to.

MarieNoelle · February 2017

@burg
Regarding the practice review I was selected within 6 months of being licensed. It was carried out by ICAEW and i found it useful although they do not test your actual knowledge ( you just need to confirm you are up to date with your CPD). it is more of a compliance visit.

Regarding raising standards the move away from the chartered accountancy bodies (as I understand it from the email sent last week to members) is slightly worrying.

David Ballantyne · February 2017

Rather than preventing people from going into practice because they lack experience, I think it would be far better if the AAT implemented a graduated system of professional development for those members who wish to start their own practice without practical experience.

This could be a graduated approach. It could start with an exam, yes, an exam, in all aspects of practice management. Candidates could be given a provisional training license starting with providing basic bookkeeping services. After a period of time this could be reviewed by an experienced MIP appointed by the AAT (for which the MIP would be paid) and if appropriate the trainee could have this experience signed off.

The trainee could then move on to other services and the process could be repeated.

In short, what would be better is a formally organised and managed mentoring service operated by the AAT. The service would of course have to be paid for by the trainee.

This would be better than individuals winging it, but would give them the opportunity to develop a career in their own practice. The alternative is that people continue to wing it or leave the AAT and join the IAB/ICB who I believe have more relaxed requirements regarding experience.

TreadStone · February 2017

Too many of the questions are where members are already acting and advising and 'winging it'. We should always apply the rule of do not take on work outside of your area of competency. Many don't seem to.

To be fair, there's a fair amount of similar questions on AWEB so it appears more widespread than people realise

.

reader · February 2017

I would be stunned if the AAT did anything about what is being said in this thread.

Everything mentioned in this thread was talked about back in a March 2012 thread and the AAT representative just said "We are committed to ensuring that the scheme for members in practice remains relevant and is reflective of good practice in the wider accounting profession. We have a responsibility to ensure new members in practice are not only technically competent but also aware of obligations that are vital to running a business; this is why we have introduced the additional licence criteria. By raising the standards of the scheme we are continuing to uphold the reputation of all AAT members in practice in the marketplace."

David Ballantyne · February 2017

reader said:
I would be stunned if the AAT did anything about what is being said in this thread.

Everything mentioned in this thread was talked about back in a March 2012 thread and the AAT representative just said "We are committed to ensuring that the scheme for members in practice remains relevant and is reflective of good practice in the wider accounting profession. We have a responsibility to ensure new members in practice are not only technically competent but also aware of obligations that are vital to running a business; this is why we have introduced the additional licence criteria. By raising the standards of the scheme we are continuing to uphold the reputation of all AAT members in practice in the marketplace."

I think therein lies your guarantee of protection of the AAT brand. I am quite sure that the AAT will react very quickly if it perceives that the goodwill built up in the AAT brand is put in serious danger by any unprofessional action by members in practice.

If any of you do not have confidence in this (which would appear to be all of you), then get yourself nominated for council, make your case to members and get yourself elected. Then you can seek to influence the way the AAT regulates members in practice.

If you are still not happy, then resign from the AAT and join ACCA. You will have to do a few more exams and won't be able to practice beyond trial balance until you have qualified and satisfied the requirements for a practice certificate by gaining experience in practice under an authorised supervisor. You will then have the satisfaction of being a member of an elite professional body for whom working in practice is only for the chosen few even if you only want to do payroll or simple sole trader tax returns.

David Ballantyne · February 2017

mrme89 said:

David Ballantyne said:

reader said:
I would be stunned if the AAT did anything about what is being said in this thread.

Unprofessional conduct, and poor workmanship rarely makes it to a professional complaint. It doesn't mean that it happen or that other people in he profession don't look at AAT qualified accountants favourably.

You seem to think the attitude shown by some people is elitism or snobbery. It isn't. It's about stopping incompetent people from shagging over the public who know no better.

Why should people have to resign from AAT too? Personally, I don't want to do the ACCA qualification as I consider myself to be semi-competent and I'm already paid well. It is the chronically incompetent that should be doing further training and study.
Then put forward solutions that enable the inexperienced to develop their skills to a professional standard through further training and study without putting the barrier of having to work for several years employed in a practice. That is presuming that they are able to gain an adequate range of experience whilst working in said practice.

David Ballantyne · February 2017

Sorry, you will have to click on the "show previous quotes" to see my latest reply.

Beckster · February 2017

Morning, just read this thread and it's an interesting read. I agree with lots of your comments.

Since starting my own practice I have come across 'accountants' who in my opinion have considerably lacked the skills to do the job, usually unqualified, but not always, (local to me rather than on this forum).

I consider myself competent in what I do but occasionally come across something either new to me or just want a bit of confirmation that I am correct. If I worked in a larger practice I would probably ask a colleague, but as I work alone (albeit part time as I also have a part time job teaching accounts) I don't have that luxury. I see this forum as a place I can ask that 'silly question that I really know the answer to but want to double check'

Does that make me come across as incompetent, and that I shouldn't have a licence?

I am grateful for the knowledge and experience that people who have been in practice much longer than me offer on this forum.

burg · February 2017

Beckster said:

I consider myself competent in what I do but occasionally come across something either new to me or just want a bit of confirmation that I am correct. If I worked in a larger practice I would probably ask a colleague, but as I work alone (albeit part time as I also have a part time job teaching accounts) I don't have that luxury. I see this forum as a place I can ask that 'silly question that I really know the answer to but want to double check'

Does that make me come across as incompetent, and that I shouldn't have a licence?

I think that is what this forum is for.

You have areas that crop up now and again that you need some help on that you would ask a colleague for reassurance, if you had a colleague.

Some of the questions are along the lines of "I'm completing a tax return for a client and I'm not sure if I should include their employment income?" or "Client wants to know if accountancy fees are a deductable expense for their limited company?"

I know we all need to start somewhere and that is absolutely fine. We have a few trainees at different stages and I would not expect them to be able to perform their roles without support. However I also would not expect them to leave and straight away offer their services to the public and that will be after having spent 3 years in practice.

burg · February 2017

David Ballantyne said:

I think therein lies your guarantee of protection of the AAT brand. I am quite sure that the AAT will react very quickly if it perceives that the goodwill built up in the AAT brand is put in serious danger by any unprofessional action by members in practice.

If any of you do not have confidence in this (which would appear to be all of you), then get yourself nominated for council, make your case to members and get yourself elected. Then you can seek to influence the way the AAT regulates members in practice.

If you are still not happy, then resign from the AAT and join ACCA. You will have to do a few more exams and won't be able to practice beyond trial balance until you have qualified and satisfied the requirements for a practice certificate by gaining experience in practice under an authorised supervisor. You will then have the satisfaction of being a member of an elite professional body for whom working in practice is only for the chosen few even if you only want to do payroll or simple sole trader tax returns.

I can agree on some aspects i.e. we can all join council and try and make a difference.
However as members of a body we are also entitled to our opinion and to protect what we have signed up for.

ACCA are a bit overkill I agree but AAT appear to have at present gone the other way. I know there will be a few who split through the net but this should be very limited.

I don't think it is AAT's responsibility to train MIP's. It is that persons perogotive to go and seek suitable employment to be able to build upon the classroom knowledge and gain real world knowledge and experience to be able to be fully prepared for the many eventualities that may arise from being self-employed and acting for members of the public who rely on that persons knowledge.

We are professionals and should act in such a way. It would not be professional of me to carry out work for which I was not competent. That client would not know if I was competent or not they just rely on what you say. If you can 'wing it' very well and convince the client you know what you are doing they will be none the wiser until the proverbial hits the fan.

I'm not 100% on what the answer is but resigning from the AAT will not solve the issue. The same as I don't think joining council is necessary. We should have a voice as members and the AAT should be willing to listen.

MarieNoelle · February 2017

I pay subs to 3 professional bodies and I have no intention of resigning from AAT.

I agree with Burg that it is our responsibility to assess whether we are competent to offer services to the public. We all have different background and experience, I came to accountancy rather late in life and I haven't had the luxury to spend 10 years in practice before going it alone. I started by offering only services I was comfortable with and I was lucky to have the back up of a mentor and another accountant I subcontract to. Anything out of my comfort zone I am happy to pay for specialist advice.

I realise experience is key but should be accompanied by regular CPD and a healthy dose of self doubt in my opinion. Encouraging new members to come on here and ask questions (we all have our senior moments) is one way to achieve this. And similarly we should be ready to accept criticism (I know there are more or less subtle ways to deliver that criticism).

But I think AAT could also help by ensuring there is a proper mentoring system in place, maybe making it compulsory for new applicants.

knightyo · February 2017

I have lots of self doubt but not sure if its healthy

I always read the answers given on here with awe and appreciate everyone's time. This would be the first port of call for me to ask any questions I feel are beyond me and I'm sure that's the same for a lot of people. If you are in practice, you get to ask a Senior, Manager and a Partner for advice. If you are in Industry you get to ask your management or a colleague for advice. If you're on your own it can be very scary and having this forum to ask questions is a Godsend. I don't think anyone is 'incompetent' for asking questions and I'm sure the veteran members of this forum don't either.

When I mentioned earlier about experience, I wasn't insinuating that everyone should have practice experience. I was trying to say (very in-eloquently) that it doesn't matter what experience you have, as long as you have some. CPD is a part of that. I know how hard it is to even get a look in in an accountancy firm nowadays and I sympathise with people trying to get a foot in the door. I had it easy.

What @MarieNoelle says is spot on. We all have various accountancy backgrounds - some in practice, some not, some with industry experience and some completely different. Having a mentor on hand as part of a compulsory scheme would be fantastic.

I also won't touch anything I am not 100% confident in. I will always refer clients to a friend of mine in practice if its beyond me (I'm very lucky to have 2 large accountancy firms I can call on for advice). A mentoring scheme could help new MIP's with this greatly. If asked, mentors could always advise that maybe extra advice is needed from another source because it seems to be outside of the MIP's remit. Sometimes people just don't know that its beyond them and may think that they SHOULD know it.

Anyway, I don't know what the answer is but I agree with most of the comments on this thread. I don't think anyone is trying to be superior or condescending. It is stemming from a genuine concern for new MIP's and how best to help them (and their clients). I had a mini breakdown before deciding to go it alone - I swung from massive self belief to cowering in a corner in the fetal position. Then my accountant friend gave me a kick up the backside and told me to pull my big girl socks up and get on with it because I can do it. I'm lucky to have that but lots of people don't.

MarieNoelle · February 2017

Maybe it's because it's not too technical ;-)

TreadStone · February 2017

mrme89 said:
This is the longest thread I've seen on this forum.

It'll be dead in here again in another month though

TreadStone · February 2017

I'll give it a month before starting the 'are you an accountant if you are AAT qualified' thread. No point burning everyone out one one week.

I could actually see you starting such a thread AND getting banned from at the same time !

MarieNoelle · February 2017

Oh no not another ban, we can not afford to lose 1/4 of the forum contributors!

Bertie · February 2017

Hi,

The exams are too easy, level 4 is not high enough to weed out those who shouldn't be Accountants.

Accountants are within the same league as Lawyers and Doctors.

Those who are sharp, and you know who you are, are able to manage on your own without the need for too much experience, you are naturally interested in accounts and tax law, almost OCD like - nothing wrong with that.

Some people would be hopeless after ten years supervision.

I do genuinely believe it should be degree level at the very minimum - to separate those who can, from those than can not, or should not.

[Of course I relate to an equivalent level 6 professional qualification, as an oppose to level 6 academic qualification - [ACCA / CIMA is equivalent to level 7...]]

I'm trying to think of a similar qualification which is at level 4, which carries so much responsibility when put into practice, CILEX? But then I'd assume massive supervision there??

The value of the AAT is going to suffer, I pay my subs yet when I scan through the forum all I see is "How to be a MIP" blah blah - if you can't find that within the AAT website then how do you attempt to find an answer to a client's question within the legislation?

In attempting to provide an answer to the issue...

There isn't one - it is far, far too late. If the AAT refuses to admit 'a person' 'a person' will go elsewhere and practice alone, or as a bookkeeper -

The AAT isn't a business, yet money talks and Bull S... walks.

The major issue is that in X years time, the Cowboys and Cowgirls are found out, a mass public campaign is brought about - thus Chartered will be the only folk Joe Public will trust.

It is sad, yet one or two Daily Mail articles on the incompetence of 'some' professionals.... well, you know about brand awareness.

David Ballantyne · February 2017

MarieNoelle said:
"I agree with Burg that it is our responsibility to assess whether we are competent to offer services to the public. We all have different background and experience, I came to accountancy rather late in life and I haven't had the luxury to spend 10 years in practice before going it alone. I started by offering only services I was comfortable with and I was lucky to have the back up of a mentor and another accountant I subcontract to. Anything out of my comfort zone I am happy to pay for specialist advice.

I realise experience is key but should be accompanied by regular CPD and a healthy dose of self doubt in my opinion. Encouraging new members to come on here and ask questions (we all have our senior moments) is one way to achieve this. And similarly we should be ready to accept criticism (I know there are more or less subtle ways to deliver that criticism).

But I think AAT could also help by ensuring there is a proper mentoring system in place, maybe making it compulsory for new applicants."

I agree with every single word.

This is exactly the kind of situation and solution that I am thinking of. Career changers who have little or no practice experience being supported in graduated steps by established MIPs in a formally managed mentoring arrangement.

This is a solution that would not lock out those who seek to change their lives for the better.

David Ballantyne · February 2017

@Bertie

I think additional practice focused exams or qualifications would be a sensible solution to help resolve the capability problem.

I don't know what QCF/NQF level would be best as long as the qualifications reflect the real average work challenges that a sole or small practice would face. To clarify, I would not want the AAT qualification to cover esoteric/highly specialised areas of work that rarely arise; this is when a more highly qualified specialist should be referred to.

Bertie · February 2017

Can I ask - a few years back there was talk of the AAT developing a tax module after completing the general syllabus, which was set to take on the ATT, what happened to that?

In part I agree that any necessary further exams are not needed for the vast majority of micro businesses and companies. That being said however, further 'upskilling' opens the mind more so to not just the answers to the questions, but why and how you've arrived at the answer.

As I have already mentioned above, those that can and those that are able, will succeed, regardless of experience - heck, you could spend three years at KPMG operating the photocopier, or four years in practice working for a cowboy.

Where do you draw the line?

For me, just my humble opinion - if you do go it alone, without experience I'd suggest [In the nicest possible way] you look into studying the ATT syllabus.

TreadStone · February 2017

I assume that the course never really took off then ?

Bertie · February 2017

Yes that is the qualification I was referring to.

Any of you guys take up the challenge? I personally do not know of anybody who has taken the exam.

It is a shame it is not marketed better, especially towards those who work in practice - I don't see it being much use to those who are employed, as ACCA aren't going to give an exemption against F6, and there will not be an exemption against CIMA F1.

I've not sat ACCA P6, but I can tell you ATT is a stronger and deeper syllabus than F6.
[Having read P6, ATT again goes deeper into the subject and legislation]

I'm going off topic now, so i'll stop.

sparkles84 · July 2017

Hi I found this post really interesting as I went on to do my Acca. I'm relatively young (ish) at 33 but always wanted to set up on my own. Despite my age, I've been qualified for around 6 years and have relevant experience but still daunting to know if I'm experienced enough to go ahead and do it. Is there any advice you can offer me? Where do I even begin getting clients? Is it just a matter of cold calling from the yellow pages?

Own practice - Practice v Industry

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