Do I need Level 3?

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  • coojee
    coojee Registered Posts: 794 Epic contributor 🐘
    E Storey wrote: »
    I don't need to do Ethics?

    Someone please confirm this is true... The book's been sat on my desk looking at me for months! I'd love to chuck it out!

    Once you transfer to the new standards, no you won't have to do it. Required units are:

    Financial statements - DFS will exempt you from this
    Budgeting - PCR or MAC will exempt you
    Financial performance - PEV or MAC will exempt you
    Internal controls - MSP will exempt you

    Options:

    Credit management - Unit 15 will exempt you (note, even if you did it at Level 3)
    Personal tax - PTC will exempt you
    Business tax - BTC will exempt you
    External auditing - IAP will exempt you

    So if you've done 11, 33, 10 and 2 options you will have completed the new standards.

    Whether AAT will change rules for membership and say that you must do Level 3 and/or ethics unit to get membership is a different matter. They may decide that ethics needs to be done (as it does under the current standards). Best bet is to check with the AAT. You can certainly finish the qual without doing it but I don't know about membership.
  • sdv
    sdv Registered Posts: 585 Epic contributor 🐘
    coojee wrote: »
    What units have you already done? If you've got Unit 11, 33, 10 and 2 options you could transfer to the new standards and not then need to do ethics at all.


    This is true. You get full exemptions for Unit 11, unit 33, unit 10 and all the optional units.
    E Storey wrote: »
    I don't need to do Ethics?

    Someone please confirm this is true... The book's been sat on my desk looking at me for months! I'd love to chuck it out!

    BUT all that gliters is NOT gold

    Your first priority should be to secure the exemption from level 3 under the 2003 standards and that will only leave you to do the ethics unit.

    If you don't get the exemption; then under the 2003 standards you will be required to acheive the following 4 units for level 3

    Unit 5 - FRA
    Unit 6 - ECR
    Unit 15 - Cash management & credit control
    unit 31 - Accounting work skills

    However, if you convert your existing acheivements to the 2010 standards and you are still required to complete level 3, then you will have to acheive the following 7 units

    Accounting 1
    Accounting 2
    Costing
    VAT
    Spread Sheets
    Ethics
    Cash Management (This is a level 3 unit under the Diploma pathway)

    It seems that your are SPECIAL afterall!
  • coojee
    coojee Registered Posts: 794 Epic contributor 🐘
    But the OP isn't doing Level 3 so why would they need to get exemptions for Level 3?
  • sdv
    sdv Registered Posts: 585 Epic contributor 🐘
    coojee wrote: »
    But the OP isn't doing Level 3 so why would they need to get exemptions for Level 3?

    If a student wants a MAAT status (become a full member of AAT) then AAT normally requires students to acheive Level3 and level4 in accounting.

    However, service provider's can grant an exemption to level 3, after satifying themselves that a student is competent at level3.

    When the student completes level4 and applies for the full membership, a service provider's declaration of exemption from level 3 needs to be attached with the application form.

    However, this agreement has to be in place before the students starts level 4. The predicament OP has, is that he started level4 without applying for level 3 exemption. If his service provider can grant him that exemption retrospectivly then thats fine, and he can go ahead and apply for MAAT status after compling the ethics unit or get the current acheivements converted to the new standards and then apply for MAAT.
  • coojee
    coojee Registered Posts: 794 Epic contributor 🐘
    OK, I still don't get it sdv. If students are "exempt" Level 2 (as many are) tuition providers don't need to apply for an exemption for it, the student just starts at Level 3 (and has to do any carry over units such as Unit 31). So if the OP is exempt Level 3 then surely the same thing applies that the tuition provider doesn't need to apply for exemption to Level 3, the student just starts at Level 4. Under the current rules, a student doing Level 4 who hasn't done Level 3 would need to do ethics as a carry over unit. But what if the student is on the new standards? There are no carry over units from Level 3, so Level 4 can still be attained without doing any further units.
  • sdv
    sdv Registered Posts: 585 Epic contributor 🐘
    coojee wrote: »
    OK, I still don't get it sdv. If students are "exempt" Level 2 (as many are) tuition providers don't need to apply for an exemption for it, the student just starts at Level 3 (and has to do any carry over units such as Unit 31).

    AAT requires services providers to satisfy themselves that stutdents are comptent at level 2 if service providers are to give exepmtions from that level and allow students to enrol on level 3. The service provider does not apply for the exemptions from AAT. They have an authority to grant an exemtions from both level2 and level3 under certain condistions.

    There is a skills check test provided by AAT to assess this. try this link

    Unfortunately, until very recenlty students had to complete both level3 and level 4 if they wanted to become a full member of AAT.

    A student don't have to complete both levels if he/she don't want to become a FULL member of AAT. If a student completes level4 then he/she will get a level 4 certificte.

    coojee wrote: »
    So if the OP is exempt Level 3 then surely the same thing applies that the tuition provider doesn't need to apply for exemption to Level 3, the student just starts at Level 4.

    Unfortunately OP is not exempted from level 3. The service proveider has not granted him the exemption nor did he apply for one. He started at level 4 by choice.
    E Storey wrote: »
    I started studying Level 4 Diploma about 18 months ago when I was working as a temp. Since I had to pay for it all myself and work was sporradic I didn't do level 3 as I could not afford it.

    However, if OP can secure an exemtion from his service provider then he does not need to complete level3.



    This debate started with the information from the following post
    OP was not even aware of a possiblity of getting an exemption from level 3
    NeilH wrote: »
    Hi

    Have a look at http://www.aat.org.uk/content/item1687

    Generally you need 3 and 4 but if your tutor can confirm you had sufficient experience to begin at level 4 you may not require level 3.

    Neil

    coojee wrote: »
    Under the current rules, a student doing Level 4 who hasn't done Level 3 would need to do ethics as a carry over unit.

    The ethics unit is required at both level (level3 and Level 4) to complete a level.

    Just as Health and safety units is required to be compleled at level 2 and Level 4 under the NVQ route

    The student either need to complete level 3 (or get an exemption from the service provider -NOT AAT) and level 4 to be eligable for a full AAT membership.
    coojee wrote: »
    But what if the student is on the new standards? There are no carry over units from Level 3, so Level 4 can still be attained without doing any further units.

    If a student transfer over to the new standard, then for level 4 the students will get exepmtion subjet for subject.

    The same is true for level 3 but under the old standard there were 5 units and under the new standard only 3 units (diplima path way - FRA, ECR, Cash Management) has been adopted by the new level3 and the folling units has beed added - VAT, Spreadsheets, Ethics, which need to be acheived to complete level 3 under the 2010 standards.
  • coojee
    coojee Registered Posts: 794 Epic contributor 🐘
    I work for a training provider and we don't "grant" exemptions nor do we apply for them. If a students wants to start at Level 3 we would first check that they had sufficient experience for them to do so and that would be that. We don't have to fill in any paperwork, we don't have to apply to the AAT for exemption, nothing. So I still can't see what's stopping the OP from transferring to the new standards and therefore not having to do ethics. Unless there is something in the AAT rules that say you must have Level 3 and/or the ethics units. It's already been established elsewhere in this thread that Level 3 isn't required for membership to the AAT so I can't see what the problem is.

    The safest way to be absolutely sure though is to phone the AAT and ask them.
  • aicbaicb
    aicbaicb Registered Posts: 17 New contributor 🐸
    what's the big deal? Just sit the level 3 papers. All it will cost you is about £40 for the exam and £20 for the textbook (if you need it). This is what I did for level 4 - I just bought the Kaplan textbooks from Amazon, and sat the papers (Kaplan doesn't charge for an external student to sit papers). The whole level 4 for £150. (I did have to pay Kaplan for unit 10 and 32 though). But the exams you can just sit. If you know the material, you probably won't need to study too much
  • E Storey
    E Storey Registered Posts: 32 Regular contributor ⭐
    Thank you all for your input.

    I am pretty sure getting my training provider to say I was competent to miss level 3 will not be a problem.

    As for Ethics, regardless of if I need it, it contains a lot of useful material about starting your own accounting/bookkeeping business. As I have just started out as a sole trader, I feel I need to understand all of this stuff (infact this is the only are where i do not yet feel confident in my own knowledge and capabilities) so I feel I will benefit form studying it and so will do that paper next.

    So it all looks good...
  • RowanB
    RowanB Registered Posts: 158 Dedicated contributor 🦉
    Interesting thread. I'm no expert on this, but it sounds as if a lot of training providers might have mugged their students.
  • mge
    mge Registered Posts: 94 Regular contributor ⭐
    Yes, interesting thread. But although it looks like it is possible to gain MAAT status with just Level 4, you definitely need Level 3 as well to get all the exemptions from ACCA.
  • coojee
    coojee Registered Posts: 794 Epic contributor 🐘
    mge wrote: »
    Yes, interesting thread. But although it looks like it is possible to gain MAAT status with just Level 4, you definitely need Level 3 as well to get all the exemptions from ACCA.

    I've just posted on a different thread to say I don't think this is true. This is a quote from the ACCA website:

    "TO AWARD EXEMPTION, STUDENTS ARE REQUIRED TO SUBMIT A COPY OF THE FOLLOWING:

    AAT STATEMENT OF ACHIEVEMENT, CONFIRMING COMPLETION OF TECHNICIAN STAGE

    AND

    AAT LEVEL 4 COMPLETION CERTIFICATE
    AAT MEMBERSHIP"

    There's no mention of Level 3.

    You said that you definately need Level 3, is that from the horses mouth or is it something you've heard from someone else? I'd be interested to know as it's a question that crops up a lot
  • mge
    mge Registered Posts: 94 Regular contributor ⭐
    coojee wrote: »
    You said that you definately need Level 3, is that from the horses mouth or is it something you've heard from someone else? I'd be interested to know as it's a question that crops up a lot

    Hi coojee. I rang ACCA Connect a few days ago. The man told me that although you would gain some exemptions with just Level 4, there would be a substantial amount for which you wouldn't receive exemptions unless you also had Level 3. (Level 2 is not necessary)

    However, with the recent changes to the structure of the AAT qualification I suppose there is a chance that this is out of date information (the gentleman from ACCA wasn't aware of the AAT changes). It would be good to have this confirmed by someone else.
  • coojee
    coojee Registered Posts: 794 Epic contributor 🐘
    mge wrote: »
    Hi coojee. I rang ACCA Connect a few days ago. The man told me that although you would gain some exemptions with just Level 4, there would be a substantial amount for which you wouldn't receive exemptions unless you also had Level 3. (Level 2 is not necessary)

    However, with the recent changes to the structure of the AAT qualification I suppose there is a chance that this is out of date information (the gentleman from ACCA wasn't aware of the AAT changes). It would be good to have this confirmed by someone else.

    OK, thanks for that. I guess it makes sense as the unit for unit basis only exempts you from F2 and F3 if you've got 5,6,7,8,9 & 11. So if you haven't got 5,6 & 7 then you couldn't get exemptions for either paper. Just doesn't tie up to their own note
  • Bluewednesday
    Bluewednesday Registered Posts: 1,624 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    coojee wrote: »
    Just doesn't tie up to their own note

    Wouldn't be the first time lol
  • coojee
    coojee Registered Posts: 794 Epic contributor 🐘
    Wouldn't be the first time lol

    LOL! I expect it of the AAT but not from ACCA!
  • mge
    mge Registered Posts: 94 Regular contributor ⭐
    I've just received an email from ACCA that gives a different reply from the one that I received when I phoned ACCA Connect. The email reads:

    "Full completion of the AAT Diploma in Accounting or Level 4 Diploma for Accounting Technicians(current syllabus) will allow exemption of the following -

    F1 Accountant in Business
    F2 Management Accounting
    F3 Financial Accounting"

    So it seems as though Level 3 may not be required after all.
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