Spreadsheets CBA as an external candidate?

rhian

Hi, i've read through the forum and apparently it's not possible to sit the SPSW exam as an external candidate- i'll have to sign up for a package through Kaplan/BPP. I just need confirmation of this as I'm really confident that this is a module I could do alone and so I feel it's a lot of money to waste!

Thank you

Jo Clark

Hello Rhian

I can confirm this is correct. You need to be signed up to a training provider as the CBP or work based evidence is marked by the training provider/college assessor not by the AAT. This is the same for ICAS when you reach Level 4.

All the best.

JC

SandyHood

Dear rhian

I have a different vested interest in the spreadsheet exam, as I am the assessor of the exams taken at Chichester College.
I believe I am thorough when I mark candidates exams, and find the spreadsheet exam is time consuming to mark.

Colleges often struggle with costing (despite having costing courses as part of the business). When you add up the costs that a college would incur if you take a spreadsheet exam it would be quite high (and mainly variable cost).

I just wonder how much you consider would be appropriate as a fee for you to sit an exam.

MWAUGH1983

SandyHood wrote: »

Dear rhian

I have a different vested interest in the spreadsheet exam, as I am the assessor of the exams taken at Chichester College.
I believe I am thorough when I mark candidates exams, and find the spreadsheet exam is time consuming to mark.

Colleges often struggle with costing (despite having costing courses as part of the business). When you add up the costs that a college would incur if you take a spreadsheet exam it would be quite high (and mainly variable cost).

I just wonder how much you consider would be appropriate as a fee for you to sit an exam.

I think the cost of exam should be round the £50 mark. Bearing in mine that study fees have to be paid along with fees to the aat I think £50 for spreadsheet is more than enough.

Jo Clark

Hello All

My views on the costing for SPSW for what they are worth are below.

£50 in my opinion is too little. I understand that students are mostly self taught or complete a set of online lectures. I think that Sandy may actually teach his students the various elements of the SPSW module.

Once the students who attend Sandy's class have completed the course and sat the CBP (not sure if they can do work based evidence), Sandy is then required to assess/mark each paper. From memory, the CBP is in two parts and made up of several separate taks but they do link into each other (or some of them do, I think).

I'm not sure exactely how the CBP is marked, however I am guessing there is an element of time spent checking the actual spreadsheets on Excel or whichever software package has been used as well as checking any print outs that were asked of the student when taking the CBP. I also recall that there were a few theory questions. I know when I sat SPSW I was advised that it could take up to four weeks for the results to come through as they are marked by the assessor and then sent for internal verification.

When costing up the SPSW paper, you need to take account of the human marker's time/resources/volume of papers/etc. Unlike the other papers at level 3 where they are all marked immediately by a computer using a sophisticated piece of software, SPSW is all human marked.

You will also need to consider whether you are provided with the course materials, access to online lectures etc. or if you purchase the books from Amazon etc.

Hope this helps Rhian when deciding on what she considers appropriate as a fee for the module.


JC

SandyHood

MWAUGH1983

I think the cost of exam should be round the £50 mark. Bearing in mine that study fees have to be paid along with fees to the aat I think £50 for spreadsheet is more than enough.

To the best of my memory AAT charge £32 and I have assumed that this is not part of the £50 when you wrote [size=+2]along[/size] with fees to the aat

I may be slower than other markers but I find that 2 hours per exam is pretty close to the mark.
In addition the fee needs to include the payment of the invigilator and the administrative costs of running the exam.

I would not be surprised if running the spreadsheet exam might cost the venue over £100 per person. There is potential to reduce the cost per student if there are more candidates as 2 invigilators can manage a room of 20. The administration costs can have the same, but marking time and the cost of the exam itself are specific to the individual candidate.

Because these exams take so long to mark, Chichester College takes me off my AAT commitments for the week after the spreadsheet exam. This of course is a cost for the college, but these exams are time consuming to mark.

MWAUGH1983

SandyHood wrote: »

To the best of my memory AAT charge £32 and I have assumed that this is not part of the £50 when you wrote [size=+2]along[/size] with fees to the aat

I may be slower than other markers but I find that 2 hours per exam is pretty close to the mark.
In addition the fee needs to include the payment of the invigilator and the administrative costs of running the exam.

I would not be surprised if running the spreadsheet exam might cost the venue over £100 per person. There is potential to reduce the cost per student if there are more candidates as 2 invigilators can manage a room of 20. The administration costs can have the same, but marking time and the cost of the exam itself are specific to the individual candidate.

Because these exams take so long to mark, Chichester College takes me off my AAT commitments for the week after the spreadsheet exam. This of course is a cost for the college, but these exams are time consuming to mark.

In regards to large typing I DONT need it and nor do I appreciate it! If it takes 2 hrs to mark then you are what I would call a "tutor" and hence this is part of your job - not to mention you no doubt earn a decent salary!

The problem with spreadsheets is that its a core skill and the different levels across a cohort will vary with such a unit. If someone has advance skills then no doubt they are doing the unit in order to complete the level - why should they pay top rack which some places charge. If someone needs extra help then yeah extra fees should apply.

KaySarah

Oh Martin :-( That was really uncalled for. Sandy is one of the nicest, kindest most genuine person one could possibly hope to meet. Not only is he a highly gifted tutor with a wealth of experience, he knows his subject inside out and goes more than the extra mile for his students. He was born to teach and does so with wit, innovativeness, clarity and patience, he is also published and is highly thought of at AAT and across the country.
Yes, knowledge of spreadsheets is a core skill, and as Senior Management you will not believe the amount of people I come across who purport to be au fait with spreadsheets, when in fact their knowledge is limited, careless and therefore dangerous -AND time consuming to others who always have to bail them out in the workplace. Sure, there is also a huge array of people who really are good with spreadsheets and do not require the extra tuition, BUT as sound xls knowledge (as would be used in Accounting) is part & parcel of the course then those with more advanced skills should bite the bullet and perhaps put their time to better, kinder use by helping their fellow classmates who perhaps cannot grasp the fundamentals as quickly. I do not think the AAT course is "top rack" with their fee charges - Other courses charge far more for far less. You will be gaining a lifetime skill with which you will be able to earn a good and decent salary, thanks to people like Sandy.
I'm sorry Martin, but trashing Sandy Hood in a public Forum is bang Out of Order and whilst I appreciate you probably typed it on the spur of high emotion, I think an apology is owed to Sandy. - It's time to eat humble pie, as I think you were a little rash.
The old analogy still holds true, Measure Twice, Cut Once! - think about it.

coojee

KaySarah wrote: »

Oh Martin :-( That was really uncalled for. Sandy is one of the nicest, kindest most genuine person one could possibly hope to meet. Not only is he a highly gifted tutor with a wealth of experience, he knows his subject inside out and goes more than the extra mile for his students. He was born to teach and does so with wit, innovativeness, clarity and patience, he is also published and is highly thought of at AAT and across the country.
Yes, knowledge of spreadsheets is a core skill, and as Senior Management you will not believe the amount of people I come across who purport to be au fait with spreadsheets, when in fact their knowledge is limited, careless and therefore dangerous -AND time consuming to others who always have to bail them out in the workplace. Sure, there is also a huge array of people who really are good with spreadsheets and do not require the extra tuition, BUT as sound xls knowledge (as would be used in Accounting) is part & parcel of the course then those with more advanced skills should bite the bullet and perhaps put their time to better, kinder use by helping their fellow classmates who perhaps cannot grasp the fundamentals as quickly. I do not think the AAT course is "top rack" with their fee charges - Other courses charge far more for far less. You will be gaining a lifetime skill with which you will be able to earn a good and decent salary, thanks to people like Sandy.
I'm sorry Martin, but trashing Sandy Hood in a public Forum is bang Out of Order and whilst I appreciate you probably typed it on the spur of high emotion, I think an apology is owed to Sandy. - It's time to eat humble pie, as I think you were a little rash.
The old analogy still holds true, Measure Twice, Cut Once! - think about it.

Hear, hear

SarahJS

I actually agree, FORCING the use of a training provider seems like a handy agreement between colleges and AAT.

I do however see that the human marking is alot more time consuming than a computer marked exam, but I'd rather pay a larger amound of money to sit the exam, than have to pay Kaplan 10 times the list price of the book itself for example.

Although paying the same (reasonable when human marking took into account) price for the module itself, I'd rather pay 20 for the books and 120 for the exam marking.

As there's nothing I can do about it though, I will pay all the fees and just view the costs of the module as a whole (or even cost of lvl 3 as a whole) as perfectly acceptable.

janwal

I have to agree about Sandy, I have actually not met him but wish he was my tutor (feel like moving to Yorkshire!), he explains things so well and nothing is too much trouble, I always follow his threads as I know I will have learn't a lot by the end, looking forward to using his Cost & Revenues which we start tomorrow.

Also I was actually amazed the amount I didn't know about spreadsheets, I use them on a regular basis at work but not in the same way as the module wanted and was really glad for the tuition I got and has really made me make a lot of improvements to what I do.

Jan

MWAUGH1983

KaySarah wrote: »

Oh Martin :-( That was really uncalled for. Sandy is one of the nicest, kindest most genuine person one could possibly hope to meet. Not only is he a highly gifted tutor with a wealth of experience, he knows his subject inside out and goes more than the extra mile for his students. He was born to teach and does so with wit, innovativeness, clarity and patience, he is also published and is highly thought of at AAT and across the country.
Yes, knowledge of spreadsheets is a core skill, and as Senior Management you will not believe the amount of people I come across who purport to be au fait with spreadsheets, when in fact their knowledge is limited, careless and therefore dangerous -AND time consuming to others who always have to bail them out in the workplace. Sure, there is also a huge array of people who really are good with spreadsheets and do not require the extra tuition, BUT as sound xls knowledge (as would be used in Accounting) is part & parcel of the course then those with more advanced skills should bite the bullet and perhaps put their time to better, kinder use by helping their fellow classmates who perhaps cannot grasp the fundamentals as quickly. I do not think the AAT course is "top rack" with their fee charges - Other courses charge far more for far less. You will be gaining a lifetime skill with which you will be able to earn a good and decent salary, thanks to people like Sandy.
I'm sorry Martin, but trashing Sandy Hood in a public Forum is bang Out of Order and whilst I appreciate you probably typed it on the spur of high emotion, I think an apology is owed to Sandy. - It's time to eat humble pie, as I think you were a little rash.
The old analogy still holds true, Measure Twice, Cut Once! - think about it.

Its interesting that there is no defence of the large typing used by sandy - I just fine that whole thing totally grating! I dont believe that I trashed anyone in public - the use of large typoing as to say someone is a idiot in a sarcastic manner if far from acceptable!

I have never slated sandy on any forum and I would be proud to have him as a tutiot; I am merelt saying that like any job you have a description and for a tutor that includes marking - I have seen and had plent yof tutors to know what im talking about and had an AAT assessor at uni who is far from what I call a lecturer!

All I am saying is that students who feel confident and are an advanced user of spreadsheets should havent to pay a load of money to do it. Personally units like that should allow students to go straight to exam is the feel they dont need support and at the end of the day spreadsheets allows that! Least that way colleges wouldnt have an issue with their costs; tutors wouldnt be spending much time with students.

MarkT

SarahJS wrote: »

I actually agree, FORCING the use of a training provider seems like a handy agreement between colleges and AAT.

I beg to differ, nobody actually forces us to do this course - the old analogy, you can lead a horse to water et al.

By saying this, we (students) chose to actually sit this course and some of us chose home learning through BPP or Kaplan, or we chose to go through the college route, or finally, the OP's route of self taught/study and book assessment centre for exams. So, surely then if we have made this conscious decision, we should have already researched the nugget of fact that we have to do certain things to pass.

Lest we forget, the AAT is a charitable organisation, and does not have board members and shareholders and thus, every penny received into their coffers is returned in overheads for staff time and wages and this website and such, the rest is put into giving us this step in the right direction. So we must pay - after all, nothing in life is for free.

Oh and Martin, I trust that your post was an off the cuff comment, because last I looked, tutors are not exactly the Range Rover set

KaySarah

I'm sorry you feel so aggrieved Martin. Sandy's manner of typing is an extension of the way he talks. He never implied you were an idiot - it's definitely not something he would do.
I've just had a curious thought ... are you having to pay for each part of your syllabus separately? Our L3 fees are just under £800 - which I don't think is unreasonable for a year's worth of tuition and exams plus £123 for a years worth of books.
In C&R you will see the "tutor" cost per class is a Fixed Overhead - so regardless of how many students are in the class - I'm afraid even if you go straight to the exam (and there's nothing stopping you from doing that and not attending the class) the tutor will still have to be paid, the room will still have to be lit and the heating will still have to be on.
Shall we draw a line under this now Martin and move on?
As you will notice, the written word does not convey the spoken tone. My tone is certainly not heated or angry, merely factual and trying to allow you to see it from a different point of view.
Shake hands now?

coojee

MWAUGH1983 wrote: »

I have never slated sandy on any forum and I would be proud to have him as a tutiot; I am merelt saying that like any job you have a description and for a tutor that includes marking - I have seen and had plent yof tutors to know what im talking about and had an AAT assessor at uni who is far from what I call a lecturer!

Interesting - what is the difference between a tutor and a lecturer then? And what makes you think that Sandy is on a decent salary? Last time I looked tutors earned about £25k per annum - is that considered decent?

SandyHood

Dear Mwaugh1983

Please accept my apologies for any offence caused by the size of the word [size=+2]along[/size]

I felt it important to make it clear that you (like me) was not including the charge levied by AAT for the exam.

I am interested to see that the argument has moved from the issue of how much should a candidate pay to sit a spreadsheet exam.

As accountants we have an insight not accessible to other students.
Interestingly, the higher an assessor is paid then surely that makes the marking more expensive.

I was hoping to see someone add up the costs to see how much the colleges (or other learning providers) incur. Presumably as accountants we would then expect to see a profit on top before setting a price.

I wouldn't want this question blurred. I am not suggesting that there is any tuition in this job costing exercise.
Simply a candidate booking an exam, turning up and sitting the exam, the exam being marked and then the result being communicated to the candidate.

May I start?

1. Booking in (perhaps treated as an overhead built into the invigilation)
2. Turning up and sitting the exam
3. A 2 hour exam in a specially prepared room (perhaps with 9 other candidates) specialist computers possibly with specialist computer technicians as well as 2 invigilators. Would you agree with 5 hours labour cost + overhead absorbed?[/i]
4. I suggest that each exam takes 2 hours to mark
5. Communication of the result (perhaps treated as overhead built into the invigilation)

Would a college (or learning provider) make an excessive profit if it charged a candidate £90 on top of the AAT charge for the question paper?

By all means feel free to suggest another way of costing the provision of a spreadsheet exam opportunity to an external candidate.

MWAUGH1983

KaySarah wrote: »

I'm sorry you feel so aggrieved Martin. Sandy's manner of typing is an extension of the way he talks. He never implied you were an idiot - it's definitely not something he would do.
I've just had a curious thought ... are you having to pay for each part of your syllabus separately? Our L3 fees are just under £800 - which I don't think is unreasonable for a year's worth of tuition and exams plus £123 for a years worth of books.
In C&R you will see the "tutor" cost per class is a Fixed Overhead - so regardless of how many students are in the class - I'm afraid even if you go straight to the exam (and there's nothing stopping you from doing that and not attending the class) the tutor will still have to be paid, the room will still have to be lit and the heating will still have to be on.
Shall we draw a line under this now Martin and move on?
As you will notice, the written word does not convey the spoken tone. My tone is certainly not heated or angry, merely factual and trying to allow you to see it from a different point of view.
Shake hands now?

Well its not a big issue I just raised it up; I wasnt expecting the running commetary! I like sandy's post and he is obviously a sound bloke based on comments on hear and the fact he helps people out of the class!

I paid the hole level in one go or 50% with the rest over 5 months. I just think if students are self funding then they have to pay everything inc exams and aat fees so I think the price of an exam is a kinda issue as I have paid 75 quid for an exam and paid 50 elsewhere. I understand that colleges have costs but they cost a course based on how much it will cost them - I personally think heating, light etc is including in the costs you pay anyway or at least it should. The other issue is having a room which would hold 50 students and then sticking 20 students in there - that is an issue and a total waste.

As you say sarah, I wouldnt wanna get on the wrong side of you as you seem a pleasant sort!

Martin

MarkT

SandyHood wrote: »

Dear Mwaugh1983

Please accept my apologies for any offence caused by the size of the word [size=+2]along[/size]

I felt it important to make it clear that you (like me) was not including the charge levied by AAT for the exam.

I am interested to see that the argument has moved from the issue of how much should a candidate pay to sit a spreadsheet exam.

As accountants we have an insight not accessible to other students.
Interestingly, the higher an assessor is paid then surely that makes the marking more expensive.

I was hoping to see someone add up the costs to see how much the colleges (or other learning providers) incur. Presumably as accountants we would then expect to see a profit on top before setting a price.

I wouldn't want this question blurred. I am not suggesting that there is any tuition in this job costing exercise.
Simply a candidate booking an exam, turning up and sitting the exam, the exam being marked and then the result being communicated to the candidate.

May I start?

1. Booking in (perhaps treated as an overhead built into the invigilation)
2. Turning up and sitting the exam
3. A 2 hour exam in a specially prepared room (perhaps with 9 other candidates) specialist computers possibly with specialist computer technicians as well as 2 invigilators. Would you agree with 5 hours labour cost + overhead absorbed?[/i]
4. I suggest that each exam takes 2 hours to mark
5. Communication of the result (perhaps treated as overhead built into the invigilation)

Would a college (or learning provider) make an excessive profit if it charged a candidate £90 on top of the AAT charge for the question paper?

By all means feel free to suggest another way of costing the provision of a spreadsheet exam opportunity to an external candidate.

When you put it like this, its extremely difficult to fathom how a college actually manages to break even let alone actually make a profit to plough back into the service it provides.

Guess I'll not complain at the £1000 fee I'll get next year for level 4

KaySarah

MarkT wrote: »

When you put it like this, its extremely difficult to fathom how a college actually manages to break even let alone actually make a profit to plough back into the service it provides.

Guess I'll not complain at the £1000 fee I'll get next year for level 4

Break Even / Fixed Costs / Variable Costs ... sounds like you will do really well in your CRS on 15 March Mark - I'll be wishing on the stars and sending them up high for you.
Let me know how you get on.
Thanks for pm :-)

KaySarah

MWAUGH1983 wrote: »

Well its not a big issue I just raised it up; I wasnt expecting the running commetary! I like sandy's post and he is obviously a sound bloke based on comments on hear and the fact he helps people out of the class!

I paid the hole level in one go or 50% with the rest over 5 months. I just think if students are self funding then they have to pay everything inc exams and aat fees so I think the price of an exam is a kinda issue as I have paid 75 quid for an exam and paid 50 elsewhere. I understand that colleges have costs but they cost a course based on how much it will cost them - I personally think heating, light etc is including in the costs you pay anyway or at least it should. The other issue is having a room which would hold 50 students and then sticking 20 students in there - that is an issue and a total waste.

As you say sarah, I wouldnt wanna get on the wrong side of you as you seem a pleasant sort!

Martin

I'm also self funding Martin as are a lot of the others out there (I hadn't even counted my AAT membership fees - if I want to keep up the CPD then it's a cost we will have to bear annually) and I suppose we really appreciate excellent tutors when we find them are they are as rare as hens teeth, so we fight their corner against all comers. We are on the Forum to support, encourage and learn from each other. I will bend over backwards to help anyone IF I can and I will stand up for those I believe in. Seeing someone succeed is thanks enough if we have played one tiny part in helping them on their way - even if our help was only in the form of encouragement and supportive words.
Thanks for your nice comment above. I'm sure you are a decent bloke too who just commented in the heat of a moment. I guess you didn't expect the repercussions which followed.
We'll draw a line under this now shall we and move on? Friends support friends.

SandyHood

I am most encouraged to see the accountancy part of accountancy student has come to the fore.

I am most fortunate that my classes are almost completely made up of ambitious young men and women (including Kay among the young ladies) who are working as accountants in one way or another and study to further their careers.

I speak to other lecturers at events organised by AAT, and find that their classes can sometimes be dominated by students who have chosen to study accountancy. This would be where the student part of accountancy student may come to the fore.

Ultimately the things we study on AAT or ACCA/CIMA/ICAEW etc are not going to be as fun as a lot of adult education courses can offer but they do need to be relevant to the work accountants do.

I'd probably include a spreadsheet test if I was recruiting new accountancy staff, the AAT exam is not fantastically difficult but it provides evidence that is relevant for many of the jobs level 3 AAT students apply for. I don't think any other single unit achieves that. Certainly IRR and NPV would not normally be given to accountants until they are in much higher level jobs.

So lots of credit to Kay, Mark and Martin for bringing sensible accountancy points into a discussion about a matter that may have become one sided (and all the weaker for it) had it been students of another subject considering how much they should pay to sit an exam.

KaySarah

SandyHood wrote: »

I am most encouraged to see the accountancy part of accountancy student has come to the fore.

I am most fortunate that my classes are almost completely made up of ambitious young men and women (including Kay among the young ladies) who are working as accountants in one way or another and study to further their careers.

I speak to other lecturers at events organised by AAT, and find that their classes can sometimes be dominated by students who have chosen to study accountancy. This would be where the student part of accountancy student may come to the fore.

Ultimately the things we study on AAT or ACCA/CIMA/ICAEW etc are not going to be as fun as a lot of adult education courses can offer but they do need to be relevant to the work accountants do.

I'd probably include a spreadsheet test if I was recruiting new accountancy staff, the AAT exam is not fantastically difficult but it provides evidence that is relevant for many of the jobs level 3 AAT students apply for. I don't think any other single unit achieves that. Certainly IRR and NPV would not normally be given to accountants until they are in much higher level jobs.

So lots of credit to Kay, Mark and Martin for bringing sensible accountancy points into a discussion about a matter that may have become one sided (and all the weaker for it) had it been students of another subject considering how much they should pay to sit an exam.

Thank you Sandy for your belief in me and your support. Thanks also to Mark, Martin, Coojee and others for their repartee and input. It shows we at least pay attention and are open to discussion.

SandyHood

Kay
Thank you
And thank you for putting Coojee's name on your post
She is brilliant and I really should have included her in mine
The Eagle students are most fortunate to have such a super tutor

Julietteb

I am in the same boat, self funding etc. And work in a completely unrelated field. I was just buying the books for level 3 as I never used the tutor support, however I had booked the spreadsheet exam and as a result of this thread contacted them to say I had only bought the books. I have now had to purchase the distance learning module and to be honest probably won't even open the box as I have the books! Lesson learnt and I don't begrudge the fact that the tutors need an additional fee for marking, maybe it should be made clearer though