To carry on or not?

jilt

I'm not sure whether I've come on for a moan, some sympathy, a kick up the backside or just to get it off my chest.

I currently work 2 days a week for a company and run my own practice the rest of the time. I've been struggling recently time wise. I really could have done with leaving work and going it alone for the past few months but as my husband is also self employed and the mortgage and bills need paying every month I daren't hand in my notice in case I didn't have much work come March and April.

I'm pulled out with work and have been working late and at weekends to cope but still don't seem to have any money to show for it. Last year I had a few issues with software, filed a client's accounts late with companies house and had to pay the penalty and spent half my time chasing so many clients for paperwork, answers to queries, and best of all money.

It's got to the point where I'm unsure I want to carry on, and today (and it's only just the afternoon!) has been the straw that broke the camels back. I've discovered I didn't file a SA800 last year or the 2 partners SA100s so I've now got £400 worth of penalties to pay. Another client has called to say she's received a letter informing her that she has £800 worth of penalties for not filing a P35 for 2010-11. That one's not my fault she failed to tell HMRC that she had not employed any staff since October 2009, I did tell her to, and I'm surprised that this is the first reminder they have sent her. I've also had clients calling me saying that they have received final reminders for tax due at 31st Janaury that has already been paid. When I called HMRC they just said that a batch of letters had been sent out in error!!! :cursing: Nice one, it's not them wasting time checking up that the payments have actually been received and dealing with anxious clients. Has anyone else experienced this?

Is any of this really worth the hassle? My husband is a graphic designer and he has been saying for the past couple of years that his profession has been devalued. We seem to work loads of hours but are worse off and we can't even say we have job satisfaction any more. I really don't want to spend the rest of my working life like this and we are seriously wondering whether to renew our office lease which expires at the end of March.

Has anyone else had times like this? It would be interesting to hear how you turned things around.

Julie2011

God I have definately had days like this! In fact Friday was the last time! I talked about giving up, but was gently talked around! All that study and hard work, and the struggles with building up a business on your own, I was advised to join a networking group for a bit of moral support which I have done now and I always walk out feeling great about everything again. I have days when I suddenly think oh god did I do that and get all hot under the collar! But then you have to remember why you started in the first place, mine was to do a job which fitted around my family, close to home and where I am in charge! I would hate to work for someone else ever again, so it is worth it, but I have found I feel under pressure to make decisions and to work as fast as possible, so Im not doing that anymore, I have decided to take my time, think things over and come back to them the next day if im not sure, also I have now done my self some check lists which I put on the front on each file to make sure I have done everything I need to. Half the problem is that you have to do every job yourself and its difficult to remember to do everything!

Anyway Im giving you lots of sympathy as I know how you feel, ill let someone else do the kick up the backside! Sometimes you need a bit of both!
Julie

PGM

Whats your other option, to work for someone instead?

If you're very busy, and not earning much, it sounds like you need to charge more?

Working for a larger company, I know we'll have a lot more rules than a sole trader like yourself; to stop people messing you about you could put some policies in place, like fines you pay on behalf of someone, must be paid in full you first.

I hear what you say about professions being devalued, people know a lot of people that can do this or that, usually when it comes down to it its without the quality or levels of service.

jilt

Julie2011 wrote: »

you have to remember why you started in the first place, mine was to do a job which fitted around my family, close to home and where I am in charge! I would hate to work for someone else ever again, so it is worth it, but I have found I feel under pressure to make decisions and to work as fast as possible, so Im not doing that anymore,

Julie you are right, yes I would hate to work for someone else full time, its bad enough working for my employer for 2 days a week! I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, no boss but lots of stress. I thought things were improving, systems in place, head down working instead of being on here etc etc Hopefully it's a tempoary phase I'm going through and things will improve real sson.

Thanks for the sympathy Julie, I'll wait for the kicck up the backside lol

jilt

PGM wrote: »

Whats your other option, to work for someone instead? -

If you're very busy, and not earning much, it sounds like you need to charge more?

to stop people messing you about you could put some policies in place

No PGM I don't really fancy the alternative.

I have started to quote higher fees for some types of work as I felt maybe I wasn't charging enough. It does say in my engagement letters that my invoices are due on completion but how do you enforce that. I had always said that I wouldn't file returns until I had been paid but there were so many clients in January that had left everything until the last minute that there wasn't time for them to come and sign and pay before filing. I accepted authorisation to file by email on the proviso they came and signed after the event.

I said last year that I was going to ask for 50% up front from clients because jobs dragged on for so long because of waiting for info from them. Of course it didn't happen bu maybe I will Have to put that in place this year.

PGM

If people take long to pay you could insist on payment up front.

jilt

A lot of my clients want to pay as liitle as possible, I don't think they would even entertain the idea of paying up front.

Monsoon

Aww Jill (((((hugs)))))

Definitely get 50% up front. I can't believe I didn't do it sooner, and it works wonders. Nobody batted an eyelid, either. Honestly, you won't know yourself. Anyone who is a consistently bad payer, get money up front. You are running a business not a charity.

If you don't want a job, then stick with the business and make it work. HMRC can be useless but part of our fee is 'danger money' for having to deal with them!!

Decide that this April will be the April when you train your clients and take no crap. Ask for info early, tell them fees go up if you don't have it in by October, say, and explicitly reiterate your payment terms and enforce the payment-before-submission rule. It's not your fault they didn't come to you until January. I know that's easier said than done but even getting a bit more into that mentality can be good for you.

I didn't make much money in my first few years as a MIP and I have paid my share of late filing penalties on behalf of clients, so don't beat yourself up over it - just make sure it doesn't happen again. It's only after I've been doing this for a number of years that I really feel organised, efficient and profitable. Stick at it, and don't keep clients who are dissatisfying. Remember also that you aren't just an accountant, you are a business owner, so look at it from that perspective as well. What can you change? What can you do better?

Oh, and your P35 penalty can get reduced to zero. HMRC are notoriously rubbish at closing PAYE files and if it's a nil return you can appeal on that basis, and that as employees ceased in 2009, it is reasonable to assume that the record had been closed.

Chin up lass, you're a superstar xx

Monsoon

jilt wrote: »

A lot of my clients want to pay as liitle as possible, I don't think they would even entertain the idea of paying up front.

I keep my fees low by reducing my costs, which includes credit control. By paying up front, you are freeing up valuable time for me, which allows me to keep my fees low.

Or something like that. It's all in the way you pitch it.;)

jilt

Thanks Jenni, everything you've said is right and is something I said I may do last year, but didn't. Think I'll get myself a letter composed to send out to all clients in April.

Not sure if I've lost the client who's returns I didn't file, am gutted it had to be them, why couldn't it have been a problem client who I'd rather not have?

Hmmm, suppose this means I will be carrying on, lets face it I can't afford not to, I'm sure I wouldn't get a job anywhere.

Thanks agaign Jenni, as always x

Rinske

Aww Jill, bit late, but sorry to hear you got a rough time! And yes, even though you already made up your mind. I'll give you an alternative: I would currently happily trade with you. You can have my job!

My employer is under the impression that because we are in an recession and people can't find a new job easily, they can just treat the employees however they like and make more and more demands, without giving anything back in return. I'm sure this place isn't the only company that thinks and acts that way.

Would you really trade your freedom (and frustrations) for some company that thinks they own you, just because they pay you?

jilt

Rinske wrote: »

Would you really trade your freedom (and frustrations) for some company that thinks they own you, just because they pay you?

Errrr no, been there, done that, got the t-shirt! But thanks for giving me an alternative.

PGM

jilt wrote: »

A lot of my clients want to pay as liitle as possible, I don't think they would even entertain the idea of paying up front.

The more you bend over backwards for them the less they value you.

Like Monsoon says; tell them this is how you're keeping costs down, so either pay or find someone else. I bet hardly any will go.

jilt

Yep you're all right, I've got to stop moaning and get on with it in a way that works for me. Thanks for the sympathy and the kick that I needed :001_smile:

anniem

Oh dear, sorry you're having a bit of a run of bad luck Jill!

Possibly thinking at a tangent, have you thought of looking for some volunteer help? There seem to be plenty of AAT students on her looking for experience and it might just give you some support and them the experience they seek to further themselves. They may bring some ideas in to assist you too. You sound like you're being stretched at the moment.

Regarding the office lease, is there enough space to have someone else in there to share the costs or is it worth looking around to see if there is somewhere less expensive? Perhaps there are other options available to you?

I do know exactly how hard it is; I rely so much on task manager and would be completely stuffed if I lost my computer I'm sure. Keeping track of where you are with clients is quite hard work and I don't think I've quite got it sussed yet either.

It will come right I'm sure.

A x

burg

Jill,

Sorry to hear how you are feeling.

The first years can be tough. I spent a few years helping my wife run the practice whilst I was still employed. I didn't really work properly in the practice but juggling it even then was difficult. So as son as the first opportunity came that I could quit my job I did. We had a very small income for the first year or so but it quickly grew.

I had my ideas from the outset and quickly learned from any mistakes. This year I have only filed for 2 without them paying beforehand and that is becuase they are set up to pay monthly and have agreed to increase the payments.

I have found offering a monthly payment option with a small discount (I currently offer around £12 - 20 a year) off the normal fees often work well. My debtors are always very low maybe around £2-3k for a max of 30 days. I also take card payments which has helped as well.

I have only this month moved into offices rather than operating from home. Working from home has been great and has kept costs low and enabled me to spend lots of time with my wife and kids.

I could never go back to employment. I just like what I do and the freedom too much.

Best of luck and hope things improve.

jilt

Thanks Anna and Ian. Regarding the office Anna there is simply nothing else suitable around, they are either far too large or somewhere that you would not like to invite clients to, bedsits came to mind. One smelled of damp dogs!

As for keeping tabs on things I thought I'd sorted it, especially after missing the companies house deadline which came to light in October. As for filing late tax returns I had to change the returns and send them out again for signing when some new information came to light. This was the day before I went on holiday back in May. I was absolutely sure I'd filed them but must just have been so busy when I got back from holiday that they got missed. Obviously this was well before October when I set up new systems, but I still missed that they hadn't been filed.

So thats £150 to companies house and £400 to HMRC, an expensive year. First time in 5 years I've filed late, certainly won't happen again.

I've had a new client in this afternoon who wants weekly payroll services and year end accounts so I think I'll ask him if he wants to pay monthly for everything. A good proportion of my clients are small soletraders and their fees are only a few hundred pounds a year. I think a lot of them won't want to pay monthly but I'll give it a try, well some of them. I seem to be getting a lot of pub clients lately I've had 5 new ones this year, 2 confirmed this week so I'll request monthly payments from those.

I do hope the woman with the £800 PAYE penalties can appeal against them and win because she still owes me £400 and I know I'll have to wave goodbye to that if not.

Oh well you win some you lose some. Maddening thing is was going to look at buying Rapport software again this month, but now I have to give HMRC my £400 instead. Still no-one to blame but myself. Note to self 'must try harder'!

burg

Jill,

Most of my monthly payments are from the smaller clients so around £20 - £50 per month. Mainly I think that these clients are the ones that find it more difficult to find the money in one lump.

Monsoon

jilt wrote: »

I do hope the woman with the £800 PAYE penalties can appeal against them and win because she still owes me £400 and I know I'll have to wave goodbye to that if not.

Appeal for her. See what I said above about it. Shows goodwill, and gives her an extra reason to pay you. An appeal letter is dead quick; I can send you a template if you want xx

Monsoon

burg wrote: »

Jill,

Most of my monthly payments are from the smaller clients so around £20 - £50 per month. Mainly I think that these clients are the ones that find it more difficult to find the money in one lump.

I've got a good mix - a lot of £30-50 a month ones and a few bigger ones too. For new clients now I always quote a monthly fee (and say annual option is available if they wish, but push the monthly option).

jilt

Monsoon wrote: »

Appeal for her. See what I said above about it. Shows goodwill, and gives her an extra reason to pay you. An appeal letter is dead quick; I can send you a template if you want xx

Yes please Jenni, if you don't mind that would be great thank you. I don't think my brain is up to letter writing this week.

Monsoon

jilt wrote: »

Yes please Jenni, if you don't mind that would be great thank you. I don't think my brain is up to letter writing this week.

Done!

JodieR

Just thought I'd send some sympathy your way too - i can totally understand everything you're saying - fingers crossed I've not had any penalties this year yet but last year I got caught out with one of those pesky '21 months from date of incorporation' situations and had to foot the bill for that penalty, and then got stung with a CIS penalty over christmas where i'd calculated all the figures and then forgotten to file the damn thing online.
Yesterday I was thinking about my old job - it was dull and the pay was rubbish and the office politics used to constantly rub me up the wrong way but just thinking about it yesterday I got a lovely feeling of calmness and simplicity about it and almost wished I still worked there instead.
You're right - we do get a lot of hassle from HMRC and our software and our clients and it is so hard juggling it all with a happy face all the time, and it does take a lot of guts to do things like putting up prices and saying no to excessive request. But, rubbish week of penalties aside, if you think about how much you know now compared to when you started out and how much quicker you can perform tasks now then you should realise how far you've progressed and how much you're capable of. It may be that there's still a way to go before you reach the moment of calm and balance and maybe we'll never ever get there, but it does seem a shame to give up after battling through this far. I definitly don't have the answers on how to turn it around so that you feel like carrying would be the right decision, but as the others have said, it may help joining a networking group or something where you can get ideas from a new perspective.

Good luck with it!

deanshepherd

Whenever I feel unappreciated I find it's time to raise prices. You'll soon find out who values your services and who doesn't. If you raise them 20% across the board I bet, even with losing a few, your turnover will be more than it was before and for now dealing with less clients. Good result!

I use direct debits to collect my fees and everyone pays monthly in advance so I am already paid up by the time year end comes. If clients don't want to sign up then they don't become clients. I have zero debtors, zero bad debts and zero WIP.

Get hold of a copy of this book and have a read. It's pretty short so will only take a few hours.

Book into one of these free seminars if you want to reinvigorate where you could be taking your practice. Great for a motivational boost. I'll be there on May 3rd.

jilt

Thanks for your comments guys. I'm feeling much more positive this afternoon, must be this lovely weather, I can't believe how warm it is!

No way am I giving up this battle. I've ordered the book Dean thanks, and I'll give the seminar some serious thought. Birmingham or Manchester is obviously much nearer for me but it would be nice to attend one where I sort of know someone who's going, after all I'm only a shy little thing :tongue_smilie:

Direct debits, I suppose I need a business account to set those up. Suppose standing orders don't work quite as well. Maybe it's time I got a business account, just been avoiding the charges, but I am fed up of getting cheques made out in my company name especially when its in bold on my invoices and statements who to pay!

I'll give the increases a try, new tax year and all that. Thanks again

GinnyBee

Been reading through this thread with interest, I have been feeling much the same recently. But all the great comments from people and the encouragement shown here is really helping! So thank you all :thumbup1:

Reminded me that I want it to work because I don't want to go back to working for someone else again, I've been there!!!!

deanshepherd

jilt wrote: »

Direct debits, I suppose I need a business account to set those up. Suppose standing orders don't work quite as well. Maybe it's time I got a business account, just been avoiding the charges, but I am fed up of getting cheques made out in my company name especially when its in bold on my invoices and statements who to pay!

Definitely get a business account. It's a shame you didn't get one with Abbey/Santander last year as their business account was free for life. I believe they now charge like everybody for new account openings, although probably less than the others.

Standing orders are better than nothing but direct debits are fantastic. You get an instant email notification if any client trys to cancel. You know straight away if a payment hasn't gone through (and the reason why) so you can chase up the client or just double up the payment next month or even re-present it a week later.

If I do any one-off jobs I now send out a direct debit mandate with the invoice and tell clients they can either settle in one lump sum immediately or return the signed mandate and I will collect in three equal instalments (clients love this) - the added benefit is that I can then use the mandate for all future work too.

You won't get the facility directly through your bank so you will have to find a 3rd party provider. I use SmartDebit and have no complaints.

SandyHood

Jill
I thoroughly recommend the business bank account and direct debit.
I did a little bit of work for a milkman/window cleaner about 12 years ago
My insistance that he paid me this way got him asking me how he could overcome the perennial problem of doorstop deliveries/work done when clients are out.
Virtually all his clients agreed to direct debits and the split of time he spent between work and chasing payments was transformed.
He increased his rounds and was rather generous when he popped round just before the following Christmas.
I've not seen him lately, but I occassionally see the ex-student who took over his books. She finds him very easy to work with and prompt with his own payments.

Remember that money is our business, and the way we run our businesses is a shop window to our clients.

PAMDILL

Our company has taken out the Co-operative bank FSB business account, no charges, free online banking etc. Unfortunately you have to be an FSB member to get it - £140/yr but you get legal insurance, Tax investigation insurance etc. with the membership fees.

It might be worth looking at the co-op's other business current accounts, I would imagine their other small business acounts won't be too dear with charges either. Also worth getting the co-op membership card to get their divvy as well if you get their account.

jilt wrote: »

Thanks for your comments guys. I'm feeling much more positive this afternoon, must be this lovely weather, I can't believe how warm it is!

No way am I giving up this battle. I've ordered the book Dean thanks, and I'll give the seminar some serious thought. Birmingham or Manchester is obviously much nearer for me but it would be nice to attend one where I sort of know someone who's going, after all I'm only a shy little thing :tongue_smilie:

Direct debits, I suppose I need a business account to set those up. Suppose standing orders don't work quite as well. Maybe it's time I got a business account, just been avoiding the charges, but I am fed up of getting cheques made out in my company name especially when its in bold on my invoices and statements who to pay!

I'll give the increases a try, new tax year and all that. Thanks again

jilt

Hello guys. The week started on a very positive note where I was looking forward to being back in my office tomorrow and getting down to work.

I just wanted to say thank you for all your support and encouragement, it does make a difference when working on your own to be able to come on here and share others experiences.

The positivety was marred a little by the vet last night who, I think the phrase is 'pissed on our bonfire'. We had to take one of our cats back to see the vet who we thought we were going to lose last week due to a dicky heart but who'd improved a great deal. They had the results of further tests and it looks as though she also has a tumour. We will just take one day at a time, she is after all almost 14 years old and apart from being a very nervous cat had not had a day's illness until now.

Thanks to you all again, I've taken your comments on board and am looking into a few things suggested as we speak :001_smile:

paulstafford

Do take Dean's advice and purchase Mark Wickersham's book 'Effective Pricing for Accountants'. It is full of good ideas.