To carry on or not?
Comments
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It's just arrived Paul, I'll read it tonight.0
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Yay Jill, good to hear it, and thanks for the update
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Hope you find it useful.
It has really made me think about how to price and market my services.0 -
I certainly agree with some of the comments about employers taking advantage of the recession.
I agreed to voluntary work with one organisation to get some accounts work experience.
Made it quite clear I had a lot to learn but was prepared to sit and learn which they agreed to.
Many weeks later they still had me doing the same stuff I'd been doing for weeks like bank recs and
posting transactions on Sage, all very mundane.
The promised training on other work was always put off and they eventually told me they were
advertising a job (including my duties) in the paper and was not told my application would be welcome.
I didn't get any pay or expenses either.
Mark0 -
paulstafford wrote: »Do take Dean's advice and purchase Mark Wickersham's book 'Effective Pricing for Accountants'. It is full of good ideas.
It's fantastic. Mark does actually do a mini free version of the book which is a hand little reference, but the full book is great.
I'd also highly recommend 'The UK's Best Accountancy Practices' by Steve Pipe. It's basically a compilation of mini case-studies of about 40 firms of accountants throughout the UK who have done various different things to improve their practices, but it is a fantastic reference tool and a great 'idea generator'.0 -
(n.b. Mark Wickersham works with Steve Pipe at AVN and the 4P Marketing group).0
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The only thing I don't like about the Wickersham and Pipe approach is the whole "you're making a loss unless you're making £100k profit a year" mentality, which is the impression I get from it.
But then, I'm not a capitalist. I'm in this business to make money, but not in the same way they are.0 -
The only thing I don't like about the Wickersham and Pipe approach is the whole "you're making a loss unless you're making £100k profit a year" mentality, which is the impression I get from it.
But then, I'm not a capitalist. I'm in this business to make money, but not in the same way they are.
Yeah I know what you mean. I think part of it is that, really, the AVN approach works best when the accountant is working for larger clients. If you're already carrying out £5k of compliance services then the scope for added-value services is (arguably) bigger than for a £200 tax-return only client. The side effect of that is that the potential extra fees are much larger so they do tend to focus on those firms as it's a better selling point for 'the AVN way'.0 -
Yeah I know what you mean. I think part of it is that, really, the AVN approach works best when the accountant is working for larger clients. If you're already carrying out £5k of compliance services then the scope for added-value services is (arguably) bigger than for a £200 tax-return only client. The side effect of that is that the potential extra fees are much larger so they do tend to focus on those firms as it's a better selling point for 'the AVN way'.
Agreed. It's definitely aimed at practices bigger than mine (and I expect many MIPS). Definitely some good concepts to take away and apply to the smaller business though
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Agreed. It's definitely aimed at practices bigger than mine (and I expect many MIPS). Definitely some good concepts to take away and apply to the smaller business though
Yeah that's exactly my view. One of the things that they encourage which I agree with most vehemently for small businesses is the need for being systematic. I think people re-invent the wheel too often when they do a job, or they do things inconsistently which result in errors which then need to be resolved.. etc.
If there is a documented system for carrying out all of the routine tasks in a business (i.e. in our practices) then not only do you do the job quicker in the first place, but you don't make mistakes and you don't have to spend time thinking about how best to do it. It also means that you can give more responsibility to employees who are less experienced; ask a new junior to post a TB to your accounting system or write up the bank reconciliation and prepare the Purchase and Sales ledger control accounts and he won't have a clue, so you'll have to do it. But if there's a step-by-step procedure that he can look up and follow (given how methodical those tasks are) then he'd be perfectly able to do a very good job of it.0 -
Actually, @Jilt, the 'being systematic' thing is heavily extolled in a book by Michael Gerber, "The e-myth revisited" and the opening part of the book describes someone in a very similar situation to you (albeit running a pie shop, lol) but she's run off her feet and absolutely fed up with running her own businesses. The book basically then runs though all of the aspects of being systematic and how it can improve a small business, and improve the situation of the small business owner who feels that way. I'd highly recommend that you have a look. (I'm a big fan of the book... can you tell?)0
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I only got as far as chapter 2 with the E-Myth book but what I took away from it is that when you run a business you aren't just the technician, you're the sales and marketing manager, the tea-girl and everything in between. I've taken that concept away with me and applied it, and it's brilliant.
Systems are great. I'm constantly building and developing them, and they really do help.0 -
Yes I have to agree that the book is aimed at practices much biger then mine but yes Jenni there are some good concepts that I can apply to my practice. I'm already on to some of them.
I just want to earn a reasonable living, I don't mind hard work and long hours but also want to spend time with my husband doing the things we enjoy. I've had years of working long hours with no overtime for others and now its my time. I also want to spend time with my mum and mum-in-law while we can as between them they're elderly and quite ill.
I don't want to hit the vat threshold either as I think I would lose quite a few of my sole trader clients. I can't really see any benefits in being vat registered, I'm not seeking big corporate clients and the majority of my clients aren't registerd themselves, unless anyone can convince me otherwise.
Mike, thanks for your comments also and the recommendation of the e-myth book, I'll take a look. Fed up of running a pie shop, she obviously didn't know a certain Mr Todd
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Yes I have to agree that the book is aimed at practices much biger then mine but yes Jenni there are some good concepts that I can apply to my practice. I'm already on to some of them.
I just want to earn a reasonable living, I don't mind hard work and long hours but also want to spend time with my husband doing the things we enjoy. I've had years of working long hours with no overtime for others and now its my time. I also want to spend time with my mum and mum-in-law while we can as between them they're elderly and quite ill.
I don't want to hit the vat threshold either as I think I would lose quite a few of my sole trader clients. I can't really see any benefits in being vat registered, I'm not seeking big corporate clients and the majority of my clients aren't registerd themselves, unless anyone can convince me otherwise.
Mike, thanks for your comments also and the recommendation of the e-myth book, I'll take a look. Fed up of running a pie shop, she obviously didn't know a certain Mr Todd
Forgive me if I've overlooked any comments which explain this, but do you work by yourself and from home? £73k would just seem like a huge amount unless yo have a team to help you, so hitting the VAT threshold is unlikely and, as you say, it's unlikely to be popular with your clients so not ideal.
I actually didn't read the hard-copy, I downloaded the e-book and listened to it in the car. Now that we have certain systems in place which get referred to whenever a job is done, it's also that much easier to improve the way we do things; just update the system document and from there on in it'll be done the new way!0 -
Forgive me if I've overlooked any comments which explain this, but do you work by yourself and from home? £73k would just seem like a huge amount unless yo have a team to help you, so hitting the VAT threshold is unlikely and, as you say, it's unlikely to be popular with your clients so not ideal.
I run my own practice yes, I started off working from home but for the last two years have rented an office in the centre of Bakewell in the Peak District. Hittting the threshold is unlikely yes however I did have someone helping me for a weeks in January and I know a few bookkeepers who are looking for subcontract work so it's not out of the question in the future as I do want to make a good go of it.0 -
I've read Mark Wickersham's book.
I'd be interested to know if anyone is a member of AVN ? Predictably, there are is no mention of costs etc (no doubt part of their marketing strategy).
I can only presume that membership is quite pricey. The "Time's Up" software looks quite useful - anyone use or been privy to it ?0 -
By the way, stick at it Jill (got sidetracked from the actual nature of the thread !)
Everyone has these moments of self doubt, it's only natural. Try and stay positive and things will improve.
All the best,
Pete0 -
TreadStone wrote: »I've read Mark Wickersham's book.
I'd be interested to know if anyone is a member of AVN ? Predictably, there are is no mention of costs etc (no doubt part of their marketing strategy).
I can only presume that membership is quite pricey. The "Time's Up" software looks quite useful - anyone use or been privy to it ?
Yep, we are. AVN currently only accept CCAB qualified practitioners as members so I guess there aren't many members on here. Membership costs vary depending on membership level and they've actually recently introduced some additional tiers. Time's Up is good and we use it all the time, but I have to say if I were being really critical it's not something that couldn't be replicated in Excel. I guess the main benefit to Time's Up is that the pricing bands are pre-populated based on AVN's surveys. 'System Builder' is the same - very good, but easily copied.
That said, AVN are now rolling out new versions of all the software which I suspect (and hope) will be far improved and offer a genuine unique advantage.0 -
You don't have to be a CCAB member to join AVN (I used to be a member).
Prices may have changed since my time but it used to be £600 plus VAT per month (per partner) for the introductory package and £800 plus VAT per month (per partner) for the standard membership package.
Standard membership unlocks lots more products and then there are a whole range of further tiered membership levels and additional products they can peddle to you so it is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
I joined as an introductory member for an initial 3.5 months and declined to upgrade to standard membership. I completely bought in to the AVN philosophy and ideology but once you are at that stage you are then trying to justify the cost with the software you are given and, unfortunately, I found it a bit buggy and (as Mike says) easily replicated.
Some products, such as the benchmarking software, can be purchased independently which I have done so, others cannot as AVN obviously want to encourage practitioners to join them.
I will be very interested to see the new software in action (hopefully at Steve Pipe's seminar in May).0 -
deanshepherd wrote: »You don't have to be a CCAB member to join AVN (I used to be a member).
Well now that's interesting... I asked our client manager at AVN a couple of months ago and was told that it is CCAB qualified's only. In fact, the Steve Pipe recommendation for answering the question 'are you chartered' is something along the lines of 'no, but the government recognises my qualification is of such quality that we are authorised to audit'. Some more digging is required methinks...deanshepherd wrote: »Prices may have changed since my time but it used to be £600 plus VAT per month (per partner) for the introductory package and £800 plus VAT per month (per partner) for the standard membership package.
Standard membership unlocks lots more products and then there are a whole range of further tiered membership levels and additional products they can peddle to you so it is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as I'm aware we pay about £750 per month so no, doesn't look like prices have really changed.deanshepherd wrote: »I joined as an introductory member for an initial 3.5 months and declined to upgrade to standard membership. I completely bought in to the AVN philosophy and ideology but once you are at that stage you are then trying to justify the cost with the software you are given and, unfortunately, I found it a bit buggy and (as Mike says) easily replicated.
Some products, such as the benchmarking software, can be purchased independently which I have done so, others cannot as AVN obviously want to encourage practitioners to join them.
I will be very interested to see the new software in action (hopefully at Steve Pipe's seminar in May).
Very interesting. Will you be at the National Accountants Conference at the end of June? I've been told we'll be rolled-out the new software early in April (it's a web based thing) and, like you, I'll be very interested to see how it works.
This thread has rather digressed, sorry Jilt! I think the point, though, is that there are many many things you can do to improve your practice, so there's hope!0 -
In fact, the Steve Pipe recommendation for answering the question 'are you chartered' is something along the lines of 'no, but the government recognises my qualification is of such quality that we are authorised to audit'.
I don't understand. Why would you answer 'no' to that question when you are chartered?0 -
deanshepherd wrote: »I don't understand. Why would you answer 'no' to that question when you are chartered?
I assumed it's because of the common conception that 'ACCA' are 'certified' not 'chartered', but you have a point!0 -
I just re-read the notes, I'll abbreviate:Format: A script that non-Chartered Accountants can use when people ask whether they are Chartered Accountants...
...Because the government sees auditing as the single most important thing that accountants do, it studied the accounting profession and decided that only accountants with one of five qualifications were good enough to be able to do auditing.
The Chartered Accountancy qualification that you asked about is, of course, one of the five. But so too are my qualifications - which include...
So that's the recommendation but, you're right Dean, as far as I'm aware the 'C' (or one of them, at least) that's found in ICAEW, ACCA, ICAS, CIPFA and ICAI stands for 'Chartered', so what's the point in the recommendation!?0 -
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TreadStone wrote: »By the way, stick at it Jill (got sidetracked from the actual nature of the thread !)
Everyone has these moments of self doubt, it's only natural. Try and stay positive and things will improve.
All the best,
Pete
Thanks, I will :001_smile:0 -
What a very interesting thread!
I'm only half way through level 3 of my studies, but I'm thinking of my future, whether to go in to industry or practice.
Is there a thread on the forum that has members experiences of starting up? It seems terribly daunting and I wouldn't have a clue where to start!0
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