Cash managment exam

lana265lana265 Settling In NicelyPosts: 17Registered
I have been reading through the forum and a lot of people have said that the cash management exam is nothing like the practice exams on the AAT website :confused1:

Has anyone very recently sat this exam and thinks its very different to the AAT practice exams? I have just booked my exam and really worried I wont pass. I have been getting 85% or more on the practice ones so I think I am ready to sit it.
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Comments

  • Kris1990Kris1990 Feels At Home Posts: 52Registered
    Hi Lana

    I sat Cash Management last month, yes it was different to the mock tests but as long as you understand the syllabus, you'll be fine. I passed the mock exams on the AAT website and passed the exam, the layout maybe slightly different but the content is still the same.

    Good luck.
  • lana265lana265 Settling In Nicely Posts: 17Registered
    Thanks for the reply Iv been really worrying about this exam. But Im sure if I know the syllabus I should be fine. Fingers crossed for my exam.
  • welshwizardwelshwizard Trusted Regular South WalesPosts: 465Registered
    Hi

    Hi
    ;
    Following numerous comments about questions and differences between available study resources and live assessments posted here (and elsewhere) it seems that the voice of the masses has been heard and a fifth practice assessment has appeared in the study resources. Thank you AAT for responding to the needs of the student members.

    Lana you are quite correct - if you know your stuff, you'll do well - good luck
  • angmcangmc Feels At Home Posts: 73Registered
    Well that's good, do you know if the fifth one is more like the live assessment? I'm going to be starting cash management in the next few weeks so it would be good to know.
  • freakyogrefreakyogre Settling In Nicely Posts: 20Registered
    Hi
    ;
    Following numerous comments about questions and differences between available study resources and live assessments posted here (and elsewhere) it seems that the voice of the masses has been heard and a fifth practice assessment has appeared in the study resources. Thank you AAT for responding to the needs of the student members.

    Lana you are quite correct - if you know your stuff, you'll do well - good luck

    Thank you for this - I took the Cash Management exam a few weeks ago and sadly failed on 2 questions out of 12. I think I know where I went wrong, but was totally thrown by the change in the exam (as were others!) It's the first exam i've failed, so was quite a knock to my confidence, but hopefully i'll be ok when I re take it.

    I'm off to find the practice assessment now :)
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    I took the Exam in March 2013. My paper was completely different from anything you find on the CBA's or within the Kaplan book. Specifically, the proforma templates (if given) are different. I got through quite comfortably because I had been practicing writing up the proforma forms from memory. Therefore, when a question was asked without supplying the form/table/proforma I simply wrote my own table to calculate the figures.

    The most difficult question I got was (I think) in sensitivity analysis, ie changing the receipt and payment cash flow budget to the changing circumstances. What was complicated was the large number of different variables and the number of types of receipts and payments. The most difficult one was where I was asked to calculate the payables payments over the next 2 months based where suppliers terms had changed from 60 days to 35 days. I was given the balance at the end of the month and had to decide how much would be paid out and when. Of the balance, how do we decide what will be paid in the next month if it is more than 30 days, but less than 2 months? Not enough info given! I guessed that none of the balance would be paid until the second month. It appears I guessed right because I got "exceeded".

    Just in case you get such a question, ask your tutor (in advance) how it should be answered. But (even if you do get such a nasty question, you will still pass IF you practice by drawing up your own proforma's so that none of the questions will throw you. You just simply apply these answers to the style of their question.
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    I have now discovered that AAT have decided to reclass Cash Management to the level 4 syllabus for next year. As I understand it (from my tutor) I would need to take Cash Management AGAIN in level 4 even though I have already passed it. What a stinker!
  • Jo ClarkJo Clark Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,526Registered
    Hello Keith

    I think that cash management is an optional paper at level 4 under the standards. Not sure why it was removed from level 3 and why it isn't compulsory at level 4. I think it is a very important unit.


    JC
    ~ An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest ~
    Benjamin Franklin
  • Jo ClarkJo Clark Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,526Registered
    I think that the tax units should be compulsory (very helpful isf you want to become self employed) and then students can opt to sit one or two of the three optional papers.
    ~ An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest ~
    Benjamin Franklin
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    For someone who wants to apply for an assistant accountant role including both financial and management accounts duties, which of the optional would be most beneficial for me to take? How different is "personal tax" to PAYE? Is it all about tax allowances, rates etc i.e basic stuff or is there much more involved?

    I think if the cash management was compulsory, then surely those who have taken it in level 3 should be exempted. I wonder if they will use the same syllabus or add extras to it? If the same, then I could sit it almost immediately after a little revision. If it is not exempt then I assume it will not be exactly the same.
  • Jo ClarkJo Clark Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,526Registered
    You may find this informative....http://www.aat-interactive.org.uk/elearning/learning_area_overviews/PTX/data/downloads/personal%20tax%20-%20learning%20area%20overview.pdf

    details of the Personal Tax unit and also how it links to the other units at level 4....
    ~ An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest ~
    Benjamin Franklin
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    angmc wrote: »
    Well that's good, do you know if the fifth one is more like the live assessment? I'm going to be starting cash management in the next few weeks so it would be good to know.

    I have just gone through assessment 5. It has many more questions than I faced in my exam and seems even more difficult than the complicated one I got. Not sure that 2 hours is enough to 100% complete CBA 5. Maybe they have switched things round and now made the CBA more difficult than exams so that we can be better prepared, ie if you can pass CBA5 you will definitely pass the exam.


    Task 2.4 is particularly confusing. The previous CBA's trained us to look at investments according to the cash flow costs. For example, if £40000 loan is received into the current account, to then compare the cashflow over the year/s of more than one option. These to include set up fees, interest fees, overdraft charges etc, considering when the amounts would be processed through the Bank. On CBA5 it expects you to answer it completely differently but does not properly explain itself.

    After checking out the answer, I just figured out that it is asking you to analyse the loan account and not the current account. What has that got to do with cashflow??? Has anyone been trained by the syllabus to write up the loan account? Basically the loan account keeps a record of the balance outstanding of the loan and ADDS the setup fee and ADDS the loan interest to the loan balance rather than deducting setup etc onto the current account. In previous exams, the interest and set up were deducted from the current account - weren't they?

    The answer to the question states that the balance at the end of each year includes the Loan principle plus set up fee plus loan interest, less any repayment. That would be okay if they made it clear that these fees should be added to the balance on the loan account, but as far as I can tell they do not even state we are producing the LOAN account and not deducting from the current account. ie to be consistent with the usual questions. I have already passed my exam, but I am concerned for the rest of you if you get such questions. Maybe one of you could write to AAT asking why they are now adding things or confusing the questions by including material which ARE NOT on the syllabus.
  • SandyHoodSandyHood Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,034Registered, Moderator
    mentorkeith

    I have read many of your postings and agreed with you.
    On this occassion I disagree.

    I have two classes preparing for the Cash Management CBE and have used Practice Assessment 5 with both, and found the 2.4 task helpful.

    To be perfectly honest, I have shown the class the kind of layout that I would use to evaluate a loan, lease or HP agreement and have encouraged the exam candidates to do the same using the paper the invigillators give them for calculating values prior to typing onto the computer based exam.

    Practice Assessment 5 is available as a guide to how the tasks can be assessed. 2.4 is one task.

    When you compare two or more loan option quotes you need to have a basis for that comparison. Option A has 3 instalments, the first one year after the loan is issued followed by the second after 2 years and the third after 3. This is a common enough loan arrangement although the 6% annual interest charge on the principal is not. Option B is a text book amortisation loan with a fixed % rate on the balance at the end of each year.

    Just because my class have a layout they have learned which basically has columns for opening balance, interest, payment and closing balance each year won't impede them when tackling this question based on a single column. They understand the significance of the interest and of the payment schedule. In doing so they can complete the table on the exam.

    This isn't a book keeping exercise, it is a management exercise looking to minimise borrowing costs for the busines.
    I do not think that discussion of the loan account entries is helpful in selecting the loan with the lower overall cost to the business.
    After a loan has been agreed there will be entries to be made, and these will demand the separation of the costs from the repayment of the principal so that the correct values are recorded in the final accounts but that is not a cash management issue. Here the choice of which loan to take out is the question.

    I think the key thing to look for in an amortisation type of question is what the interest is charged on. Here we talk of "in advance" and "in arrears" although I try to make it stick in everyone's memory by mispronouncing arrears as our ears.

    Alternatives to amortisation are bullet or balloon payments.
    Sandy
    [email protected]
    www.sandyhood.com
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    Hi Sandyhood

    We are not in disagreement! I totally agree with you. It is just that you have misunderstood the point I was making.

    Everything you said makes perfect sense. It is very good that you are teaching your class in this way. My tutor took us through the Kaplan book as the text book but also gave us some Osborne tutorials to work on. We were not introduced to the loan format, that you explained VERY WELL above, neither did the AAT practice assessments 1-4 cover it. I was trying to explain that this loan format (in the light of my learning experience) was not covered in the material within the books or within the tutorials, because everything (in the books and material) was geared towards the cashflow and liquidity of the Business; specifically the entries in the cash book in relation to the Bank CURRENT ACCOUNT; and not to the balance remaining in the loan account.
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    Hi Everyone

    There is at least 2 threads going on saying similar things. It might be good to compare comments on this other thread also as it sorts of complements this thread. to read it please click on:

    http://forums.aat.org.uk/showthread.php?37060-cash-management-OMG&p=265820#post265820
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    Hi Sandyhood

    We are not in disagreement! I totally agree with you. It is just that you have misunderstood the point I was making.

    Everything you said makes perfect sense. It is very good that you are teaching your class in this way. My tutor took us through the Kaplan book as the text book but also gave us some Osborne tutorials to work on. We were not introduced to the loan format, that you explained VERY WELL above, neither did the AAT practice assessments 1-4 cover it. I was trying to explain that this loan format (in the light of my learning experience) was not covered in the material within the books or within the tutorials, because everything (in the books and material) was geared towards the cashflow and liquidity of the Business; specifically the entries in the cash book in relation to the Bank CURRENT ACCOUNT; and not to the balance remaining in the loan account.

    Following on from what I said above:

    CBA 5 (throughout the paper) often does not properly explain what is required. The example I gave above of 2.4 is a case in point. It DOES NOT explain that you need to complete the entries for a loan account proforma. I have read it through and through again. It IS open to misinterpretation. If I had got that question in the exam I would have failed that question because I would have entered minus figures for Loan interest and setup fees, thinking it was a cashflow question BECAUSE that is how we had been trained. It is not right that exam questions should be so unclear as to lead to misinterpretation. Are we being tested on understanding complex wordings or are we not being examined on applying our training to easily understood ACCOUNTANCY questions? I am not suggesting the questions should be easy - of course not. At level 3 they should be difficult. My contention is that the question should be easy to understand what they are asking for - even if finding the solution is complex.

    As I said, I passed first time on my CBE, but my exam WAS easier than CBA question 5, especially from 2.2 to the end. I took 100 mins on tasks 1.1 to 2.1 but cleared up the rest of section 2 within 15 minutes because it was relatively easy. But on CBA5 the tasks 2.2 to the end are much more longwinded. If I took a similar exam to CBA5 I WOULD complete it successfully within about 2.5 hours but I am almost certain 2 hours is not long enough for CBA5.

    What do others think?
  • VleeVlee Well-Known Posts: 136Registered
    I'm not very far through level 3 but I have to agree with the wording or format of some questions being open to interpretation. I often think it's my rusty brain cells after three years at home with the children so I ask my husband who works in finance (not accountancy). Even he can't tell which meaning is right because it is simply not explicit. This applies to AAT and Kaplan materials. One question on the skills check I seem to recall, mentioned something to do with a cheque being paid in but we couldn't work out whether it was paid in to the company account or supplier, well it was something like that. There are also a number of asumptions to be made - I found this in the BA2 Bank Reconciliation - the exam isn't like the real world where previous months' cashbooks can be checked or we have all the information, instead it becomes a trial and error exercise. ok better go crying child wants to bash the laptop.
  • SandyHoodSandyHood Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,034Registered, Moderator
    Dear mentorkeith

    I think that AAT do have a problem. They want exam candidates to have a fair chance to pass the exams, but don't want to devalue the qualification by having the same sort of question in each exam, with just different figures.

    I am critical of students who want to learn by looking at sample exams before studying the subject. I consider sample exams have a role. It is to provide practice opportunities and an idea of timing. It is important to study the subject first and then to test your own knowledge and level of expertise.
    I have seen some questions in one revision book, these looked very similar to the sample exams and some questions were those from the sample with different numbers. The focus on the sample exams is narrower than the standards themselves.
    The guidance notes show the subject area that is being tested, and amplifies the raw facts from the standards. This is what needs to be demonstrated in an exam. This can include aspects of the standards that have hitherto not been in an exam.

    You made a valid point. You had been trained to answer loan questions in terms of the cash flow timings. This led you to read the task requirement for 2.4

    Use the table below to calculate the interest charged each year and the total cost of the loan, for each loan option. Round interest calculations to the nearest £.
    You must use minus signs or brackets for the loan repayments.


    And treat it as a calculation of cash flows.
    It DOES NOT explain that you need to complete the entries for a loan account proforma. I have read it through and through again. It IS open to misinterpretation. If I had got that question in the exam I would have failed that question because I would have entered minus figures for Loan interest and setup fees, thinking it was a cashflow question BECAUSE that is how we had been trained.

    I have criticised questions from AAT for very many years. On this occassion I defend this one.

    In my opinion you had been conditioned to provide an answer not asked for. Yes conditioned, you'd attempted other questions that had asked for that and your other preparation had contributed to your mindset. But if you re-read the task requirement you'll see that you are asked to Use the table (pro-forma) to:-
    1. calculate the interest charged each year
    2. the total cost of the loan
    And that the only minus signs should be used for the loan repayments.

    I am sure that you are good at the subject, and I would imagine that you will have figured out that the principal plus all the costs will add up to the total of all the repayments. On that basis it makes sense to treat the borrowed amount as a positive value with any interest and costs added to it, and all the repayments as amounts taken off.

    Look at Option 2
    Loan Principal .....b.................. £40,000
    plus set up fee ........................... £400
    This totals £40,400
    Interest at 7.3% ........................£2,949
    Less Year 1 annual repayment ..b-£15,479
    Balance end of year 1.................£27,870
    plus interest at 7.3% ................2.£2,035
    Less Year 2 annual repayment ..b-£15,479
    Balance end of year 2.................£14,426
    plus interest at 7.3% .............2....£1,053
    Less Year 3 annual repayment ..b-£15,479

    I think this question is clear, and that it tests a relevant aspect of the standard. When there is a forecast cash shortage it is important to be able to select the most cost effective.
    Sandy
    [email protected]
    www.sandyhood.com
  • welshwizardwelshwizard Trusted Regular South WalesPosts: 465Registered
    Hi Sandy

    For what it is worth, I agree completely with you!

    The other loan/investment questions where tables have to be completed are, in my opinion, horrible as the ticking of boxes is clearly an opportunity to get the answer correct just by chance.

    In the example you've quoted, the requirement to calculate figures is clearly stated and, having been given the pro-forma, I see little problem in 'filling in the blanks'. It is interesting that this pratcice assessment has been published so close to the end of the current Level 3 Cash Management run and I wonder if this is, indeed, an acknowledgement from AAT that there are some dramatic differences between the other sample/practice assessments and the current live question bank.

    I use the practice assessments to give my students an idea of the type of questions they could expect to find but I also always issue the caveat that there are too many ways to ask a question that I could never expect to provide of every way. I always tell them the assessments are about knowledge and understanding and not just regurgitation based on what is expected. My mantra RTFQ (Read The Full Question) becomes imprinted on their memories as I usually just write RTFQ when they answer homework tasks incorrectly as so many just put down an answer they would expect to find based on the practice questions.

    A tip for anyone sitting assessments? Take the time to RTFQ and maybe even RTFQ again to ensure that you understand what you need to do and not what you think you need to do - there is a huge difference!
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    SandyHood wrote: »
    1) I am critical of students who want to learn by looking at sample exams before studying the subject. I consider sample exams have a role. It is to provide practice opportunities and an idea of timing. It is important to study the subject first and then to test your own knowledge and level of expertise.


    2) And that the only minus signs should be used for the loan repayments.

    Hi Sandyhood.

    Again I agree with virtually everything you have written. The above 2 are excerpts from your post. I would like to highlight for 2 different reasons.

    Number 1 ABSOLUTELY. I want prospective employers to know that my qualification means something and not think the exams are too easy, as this would also bring AAT into disrepute.

    Number 2. Actually it does not say" the only minus signs should be used for the loan repayment"s. It says "You must use minus signs or brackets for the loan repayments". That is a slightly different way of putting it and is not clearly saying that these are the only minus's. I thought it was a test to see whether I understood that ALL costs/expenses are a deduction in the cashflow and therefore the interest and setup fee should also have a minus.

    Sometimes the questions do do this as a test to see if you understand the differences between income and expenses or cash receipts and cash payments. Example: a loan is a cash injection (receipt) and repayments, setup fee and interest are all cash payments. So, according to our conditioning, the setup fee, interest and repayments would reduce the amount of the cash injection. I still maintain that the wording could have been a bit clearer. Yes, (in a CBE) I may well have finally realised what they wanted, especially as they did not ask for a balance figure at the end of the third year. That actually confused me because (with my calculation) there was a minus balance which did not match the cost of the loan figure. Although, I would have figured it out, I just wonder how much time would have been wasted before I realised (based on their poor wording) what was required.

    My point is that 2.4 is just ONE example on CBA 5 of a task which COULD be misinterpreted. Reading the question properly is only possible if it is explained properly. If we have to read between the lines then 2 hours is not enough. That is my point.
  • SandyHoodSandyHood Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,034Registered, Moderator
    Mentorkeith

    That is fine.
    I'd merely point out that if you have a mortgage or have friends with a mortgage then:
    you'll know that the mortgage will have costs, a setting up fee and interest at a particular rate;
    and cash flows - typically the monthly payments to the mortgage company.

    Take a mortgage where the borrower agrees to pay a fixed amount for a couple of years, that amount is the only payment to the mortgage company. It isn't as well as the set up fee and as well the interest, they are not cash flows.

    The amount borrowed goes up each time the interest for that year is added and goes down when the repayments are made. The early payments of a mortgage are mainly paying the interest, then gradually the proportion of the capital borrowed that is paid off gets bigger and bigger, and eventually the whole mortgage is repaid.

    This means, from a cash flow perspective interest is not a cash flow and the set up fee is not a cash flow. They are costs.
    Only the repayments are cash flows.

    A lot of people pay off their credit card bills in the same way - a fixed amount of cash each month, but additional costs that are not cash flows.

    I hope this is helping.
    Sandy
    [email protected]
    www.sandyhood.com
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    Thanks Sandy

    I wasn't saying that I didn't understand it. I had already figured all that out when I first examined the answer. I am simply putting myself inside the shoes of my fellow students and identifying with them how confusing the wording can be. As i stated, my question is no longer about the Loan account but whether 2 hours is enough time for the exam IF YOU HAVE TO read between the lines.

    I have never taken out a loan of any kind, neither have I ever used a credit card - I use a debit card. Many younger students will not understand about loans either yet.

    Didn't some CBA's state that loan interest and setup fees got deducted from the cash book and not added to the loan balance? If so, why, if the correct procedure is as you explained above? Wouldn't that be being inconsistent?
  • SandyHoodSandyHood Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,034Registered, Moderator
    Dear Mentorkeith

    I am happy to agree to differ.
    I consider that task 2.4 does not require reading between the lines. I think you just have to answer the question as written. Fair enough you take the opposite view.

    This is a course to improve the knowledge of students in terms of all aspect of cash management, this includes loans and the various methods used to repay them. Younger students in particular must acquire this knowledge as they are likely to need it when they move into key jobs and it is an expectation of the unit.

    If set-up fees are to be paid in cash, they must be stated as such. I will not take it for granted that they will be paid in cash because this is not the normal approach that lenders take.

    Interest can be paid in cash. Fair enough you are not familiar with mortgages, but mortgages are part of the standards. One type of mortgage is the interest only mortgage. In this situation no regular payment is made to pay off the principal, only interest.

    If you want a specific loan to have:
    loan interest and setup fees got deducted from the cash book and not added to the loan balance the task must spell this out to the candidate.

    Loans vary even from the same provider, so there will not be consistency.

    I like the way you explain the points you raise, and I would be happy to help (if you wanted my help) on any of the units I take. We happen to have different views in this area, I'm sure we can both live with that.
    Sandy
    [email protected]
    www.sandyhood.com
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    Hi Sandy

    I have just checked through all the CBA's 1-4, again. My mistake! I could have sworn there was an exercise in which we needed to show the cash flow in the current account. I was wrong! None of them actually do this. They all simply ask you to work out the various costs including overdraft interest, loan interest and arrangement fees. None of them ask you to calculate what goes through the current account. What originally threw me (some time ago) was that one question showed the monthly balances of the bank current account and asked you to calculate the overdraft interest and then gave the loan interest figures and arrangement fees separately. I guess I assumed that (because they gave the current account) that they all belonged to the current account.

    Okay, my apologies to all!

    Can I therefore assume that arrangement fee and loan interest is ALWAYS ADDED to the principle loan figure as is the practice by ALL lending companies?
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    SandyHood wrote: »
    Dear Mentorkeith

    I like the way you explain the points you raise, and I would be happy to help (if you wanted my help) on any of the units I take. We happen to have different views in this area, I'm sure we can both live with that.

    ohhhhh, thankyou, so very much! That is very much appreciated!

    I will take you up on that offer in due course. I will be starting level 4 shortly, so may need your help. Could I ask you questions on things I don't understand after reading through the material?
  • SandyHoodSandyHood Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,034Registered, Moderator
    Could I ask you questions on things I don't understand after reading through the material?
    Of course you can.
    Can I therefore assume that arrangement fee and loan interest is ALWAYS ADDED to the principle loan figure as is the practice by ALL lending companies?
    Sadly no. This is the normal approach, but exam questions (especially when they aim to avoid the repayment value calculation) can customise the scenario. This is not an area where you can rely on consistency.
    Sandy
    [email protected]
    www.sandyhood.com
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    That was the point I was making. Inconsistency can be confusing to students. If the questions/tasks are to be inconsistent, then surely they should spell it out better what they want the students to do? Does anybody from AAT exam settings, read these forums? Or does somebody forward to them the concerns shown on this forum? The reason I laboured this subject was in case the answer was "yes".
  • SandyHoodSandyHood Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,034Registered, Moderator
    The inconsistency is not AAT's fault.
    It is in the nature of loan agreements.
    One agreement might specify amortisation, say with interest added to the principal and repayment sums deducted afterwards. What I have called payment in arrears.
    Another might specify payment in advance and interest calculated on the balance.
    A third might be interest only with the principal paid off at the end of the term of the loan.
    I could go on and on.

    I am not aware of any exam question that has not been clear (as far as what the question is asking for) about how the borrower is expected to repay the loan.
    Yes I am defending AAT.
    Sandy
    [email protected]
    www.sandyhood.com
  • LinduxLindux Settling In Nicely Posts: 29Registered
    Am I just blonde or there isnt anymore cash management the 5th practice exam? I dont like the new AAT tbh :confused1:
  • mentorkeithmentorkeith Feels At Home Posts: 74Registered
    Lindux wrote: »
    Am I just blonde or there isnt anymore cash management the 5th practice exam? I dont like the new AAT tbh :confused1:
    Hi Lindux

    What do you mean? If you mean that you cannot find question 5 or the 5th CBA then click on this link:

    http://www.aat-interactive.org.uk/elearning/new/CMGT_PracticeAssessment_5/index.html

    This link will take you direct to the secure access surpass page and will save you having to login.
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