FAO Steve

GlynisGlynis Trusted RegularPosts: 488Registered
Steve I really need your help. I was told yesterday that I am being made redundant as my company is being bought out. Please offer me some words of help as to how I can get a job in practice given that I could start immediately and know about ledger work.

Steve i need help.
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Comments

  • BluewednesdayBluewednesday Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 1,624Registered
    Sorry to butt in on Steve's post and sorry to hear you are being made redundant.

    I think you've already answered your own question, you have ledger experience and you can start immediately.

    I think you also might have to accept that you are going to have to take a step down to get that practice experience, start applying for any jobs in practice, even admin jobs as Avic has suggested to others as it could give you a foot in the door.

    Good luck.
  • GlynisGlynis Trusted Regular Posts: 488Registered
    Hello Bluewednesday. Thats what the agency have told me. My boss dropped the bombshell on Friday and I am devastated. I suspected something was happening as I have been told the auditors are in next week and it isn't even the year end. At 54 its hard to get a job as it is but even harder in accounting.

    I suppose I'll have to apply for junior roles but I am worried I will never work up as I am quite old.
  • RinskeRinske Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,453Registered
    Sorry to hear the bad news Glynis.

    Usually working up in the company is not depending on age, but on skills. In my experience this is especially true in practices.
  • Steve CollingsSteve Collings Experienced Mentor Posts: 997Registered
    Hi Glynis

    I am not sure I can add to the advice already given to you. What I would say (with all due respect) is that you listen to the agency staff rather than turning on them. They do want you to find a job because they will get commission on your placement, but they have to be realistic. I would not employ someone for an audit senior role had they not had exposure to audit because it would not be cost effective for my firm to do so, nor would it be fair on a client having an audit senior who had never done any audit before - they would wonder what on earth was going on!!

    Keep positive and don't focus on people's ages! At 54, presumably you have a wealth of bookkeeping/accountancy experience to offer. Maybe it might be worth considering deferring trying to get a practice role for a while and consider an alternative role in industry? Just a thought...

    Good luck.
    Steve
  • GlynisGlynis Trusted Regular Posts: 488Registered
    Steve it seems so many of the younger generation are too quick to write people my age off.

    The agencies employ schoolchildren who are too wet behind the ears to really understand anything. They also make jobs up- i know that because i went for a "job" and the agency girl said "oh its been taken". They all lie!

    Why we ever use these so called agencies is beyond me.
  • A-VicA-Vic Expertise Guaranteed Posts: 6,970Registered
    Glynis really sorry to hear about the job.

    One thing i would have to pick up on tho, i dont think its an age thing its a climate thing people are prepared to take a cut in wage and a step down to get in the job they want, i myself am looking to do this.

    I think now your first priority is to secure work whatever it may be. Like steve said may mean differing from our current goals however you know yourself bills still have to be paid. I have also contacted many agencies and had a few promises but am wise enough to get carried away with the hipe.

    The very best of luck in your job search and if in any way i can help please free to pm.
  • RachelRachel Trusted Regular Posts: 349FMAAT, AAT Licensed Accountant
    I really don't understand or like how you seem to disrespect everyone that is younger than you. It is childish, most people get the jobs that they are capable of regardless of age and you need to respect and remember that
  • Steve CollingsSteve Collings Experienced Mentor Posts: 997Registered
    Glynis, age really doesn't matter. It's more what you can offer an employer.

    FYI you are the same age as my mother and yet you always ask my opinion.

    Best regards
    Steve
  • GlynisGlynis Trusted Regular Posts: 488Registered
    Steve you have shocked me. How old are you (if you dont mind me asking). You seem so mature in your posts.
  • Steve CollingsSteve Collings Experienced Mentor Posts: 997Registered
    Glynis wrote: »
    Steve you have shocked me. How old are you (if you dont mind me asking). You seem so mature in your posts.

    Im 21.







    Well, 35 really!
  • BluewednesdayBluewednesday Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 1,624Registered
    Im 21.







    Well, 35 really!

    and looks 45 lol ha ha (not really)
  • GlynisGlynis Trusted Regular Posts: 488Registered
    Well Steve I am shocked. As my mother would say "Ill go to the foot of our stairs". I thought you were older. My son is the same age as you! He is a really big Aston Villa fan! How have you do all what you have? I keep trying to get my son to make something of himself but he won't! I bet your mother is really proud of you.
  • A-VicA-Vic Expertise Guaranteed Posts: 6,970Registered
    and looks 45 lol ha ha (not really)

    :lol:
  • sdvsdv Experienced Mentor Posts: 585Registered
    Glynis wrote: »
    ............it seems so many of the younger generation are too quick to write people my age off.

    I am with you Glynis, but from a different perspective.

    If I had a job to offer in my accounting practice I would not offer that place to an employee who does not have experience of working in an accounting practice.

    Working in an accounting practice is different from working in an industry. In an accounting practice you are required to be more disciplined. You expected to perform. Generally you are expected to earn/bill fees for the practice 3.5 times your salary. (x1 = salary, x1-overheads, x.5 admin staff, x1 profit)

    Every job/task you are given is time constrained. You have to keep time sheets and account for any unchangeable time to your manager.( including making tea, having a fag, break time)
    I would not take on anyone aged 54 and then teach them the practice ropes. It may take 2 to 3 years to fully train them. And then if you decide to stay with the firm, how many year’s benefit will I get out of you? The chances are that you will most probably move on. (opinion based on past experience and your life experience and expectation due to your age) Should I take that risk?

    Due to your maturity, seniority and life experience, you are more likely to put me in an awkward position 3 to 6 months time by asking a raise in your pay and I won’t be able to fob you off easily compared to a younger inexperienced person.

    There is also a question of my company’s image! Young people – more vibrant, going places, up for a challenge, no grumbles.

    Of course, I don’t want to fall foul of the discrimination laws and so I will decline your application on the grounds of lack of work experience

    I am sure this post will inspire to post arguments on the both side. Honesty and empathy.

    Glynis , do not take this post personally, but a possible explanation and most of all a new opportunity to do something new and different with a light heart and mind.

    Fortunately I do not have a practice so I don’t have to take such decisions…….
  • MonsoonMonsoon Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 4,071FMAAT, AAT Licensed Accountant
    Glynis wrote: »
    Steve it seems so many of the younger generation are too quick to write people my age off.

    I'm 30, my business partner is 39, and our latest employee is over 70. She's good, loads of experience, an asset to the team. We didn't know how old she was til she looked at her P46 and went, oh, I need to put my DOB on here, don't I?! :) My point being, not everyone cares about age, don't focus on it.

    Sorry to hear about your job, I can't add much past what's already been said but good luck - now's the chance to try and get that practice experience you've been after.
  • PoodlePoodle Experienced Mentor Posts: 711Registered
    sdv wrote: »

    Working in an accounting practice is different from working in an industry. In an accounting practice you are required to be more disciplined. You expected to perform.

    lol
    sdv wrote: »

    Of course, I don’t want to fall foul of the discrimination laws

    Really?
    sdv wrote: »

    Fortunately I do not have a practice so I don’t have to take such decisions…….

    Well we have to count our blessings for somethings then !
  • RinskeRinske Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,453Registered
    I disagree with SDV's point of view for a number of things.

    Nowadays most employees don't stay for life with the company anymore, so avoiding older employees, based on the fact that they might leave early is less common. The current trend is that below 50 people swap jobs and companies a lot, to push their career and after 50 they tend to stay with the company, because they are more focussed on retirement and being happy with their job. (No offense to anyone).

    However trends always have exceptions etc, so I won't say that everyone is working this way.

    The recession made finding a new job a lot harder, no matter what age or experience you got. As employers can be picky, they are more likely to go for people with the experience/ education they prefer, over the 20 other candidates they have got. Most people are happy with the paycut, so most employers pay a lot less when you start somewhere now as well.

    Working in practices is hard work and having done both practice and industry, I agree that the time pressure in practices is usually higher, but on the other hand, within industry there are other things that make the job harder, so it really is a matter of preference.

    For example:
    Within practice, I had to keep my time and be on 6 minutes specific, of my time 97% had to be on customers, the other 3% could be indirect, but only with permission from my manager, which was not often granted. But on the other hand, if I was doing the payroll for a day for a lot of our small customers I would end up writing 18 minutes to each of them and by the time I went home, I had a timesheet of 12 hours, while I only worked 8, so there is flexibility in there. You just need to learn how to write your time creatively, so you don't have to do extra hours, just to get a full day's of work.
    It makes a lot of difference if you work for one of the big four or smaller ones, the smaller ones are less pressured and are a lot more relaxed to work for.

    On the other hand in my current role, when I just started, I ended up doing long hours, just to get my work done, as there was noone else to do it and there was noone to explain me how things were supposed to be done, but they did expect me to finish the work and they didn't pay overtime.

    Whichever job or role you go for, within the current climate it might pay less than your current job and I would suggest to focus on getting a job, rather than being too picky, but I really don't think age is the reason for employers to avoid you.
  • Gem7321Gem7321 Experienced Mentor DevonPosts: 1,438MAAT, AAT Licensed Accountant
    Sorry to hear you are being made redundant.

    Like everyone has said, the important thing now is to have a job and you would have more luck applying for industry roles (and generally there is more money). You could even do contract cover/temping whilst continuing to look for a practice position if that's really what you want.
  • blobbyhblobbyh Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,415Registered
    Glynis wrote: »
    The agencies employ schoolchildren who are too wet behind the ears to really understand anything. They also make jobs up- i know that because i went for a "job" and the agency girl said "oh its been taken". They all lie!

    Why we ever use these so called agencies is beyond me.

    So what are you saying Glynis? That because a job you applied for went to someone else it can't have been a proper job in the first place? That makes sense. Not. Maybe you were too late and the job really had gone? Maybe the other person who got the job was actually better than you? And no-one has to use agencies if they don't want to nor should they be relied on as the only source of finding employment. As I've stated before, we are not your local job centre nor are we government funded initiative schemes, we are 'for profit' businesses run by private individuals who make our money from providing candidates of suitable quality to the client organisations who pay us.

    While I genuinely do symapthise with your situation Glynis, I note it didn't take long for your deep rooted anti-youth/anti-agency bigotry to once again show itself in this thread. You miss the fact that age isn't always linked to ability and just because you have more years ledger exoperience than someone else, doens't necessarily mean you are automatically more able. I also fear your attitude comes out in your conversations with the agencies you've used which is why they've never found any work for you. It's not necessarily because they haven't got anything for you - and they actually may not - it's that maybe they'd rather go with someone else who doesn't quite hold the same thoughts as yourself and who actually treats them with the respect they expect if you want them to find you work.

    And I thought sdv raised some valid points. Glynis proves that age-ism isn't always young against old but that it works both ways. We live in the real world with real world bosses who don't always toe the government line when it's their own money at stake and investing heavily in potential 'risk' employees.
  • LondinaLondina Experienced Mentor Posts: 814MAAT, AAT Licensed Accountant
    blobbyh wrote: »
    So what are you saying Glynis? That because a job you applied for went to someone else it can't have been a proper job in the first place? That makes sense. Not. Maybe you were too late and the job really had gone?

    Actually Blobbyh, I came across too to "fake jobs", surely it's something that not all agencies do, but there are some that yes, they put jobs adverts up just to get more candidates in their listing.
    Example, from a well known agency I saw the same job advert from more than 8 months now and it's refresed every week. Once I contacted them regarding the position and they told me "It has been filled"...so why they are still advertising it? and for all this time?
  • SueSue Well-Known Posts: 217Registered
    The AAT were advertising a job on this website a few months ago, when I contacted the company to apply I was told the job had gone a couple of years ago and the company keep asking the AAT to remove it. I find it more worrying that the AAT would do this than an agency.

    Glynis sorry to hear you are being made redundant – I seem to remember about a year ago you said you were being made redundant from the furniture company you worked at. Horrible to go through it twice in a short space of time.
  • GlynisGlynis Trusted Regular Posts: 488Registered
    SDV you don't know what you are talking about and seem to be living in the dark ages! You need a blast inti this century with those stupid comments.

    Blobbyh as per nobody is ever allowed to have an opinion thats different than yours. If they do you resort to nasty comments. Well you dont scare me. Ill stand up to you any day.

    Sue I am still at the same company and have worked there about 11 years. It was being sold last year but fell through but this one looks to be going through :( what annoys me is the way people treat you during it. Auditors talk to you like dirt and make demands that are ridiculous. And don't get me started on the lawyers!
  • SueSue Well-Known Posts: 217Registered
    Glynis

    I don't really know much about this and have never looked into it, but I thought if you were buying a business you had to take on the staff, have you spoken to ACAS?

    Sue
  • A-VicA-Vic Expertise Guaranteed Posts: 6,970Registered
    I smile everytime i see a posting for a job i applied for and interviewed at a few years back for purchases ledger clerk job under the NHS it seems this job is advertised every six months - see i knew they should have given me the job i might have hated it but i am a stayer.
  • Steve CollingsSteve Collings Experienced Mentor Posts: 997Registered
    Glynis,

    I think Sue has a very valid point and it might be worth checking your position with ACAS.

    Regards
    Steve
  • sdvsdv Experienced Mentor Posts: 585Registered
    Glynis wrote: »
    SDV you don't know what you are talking about and seem to be living in the dark ages! You need a blast inti this century with those stupid comments.

    Glynis! Glynis! Glynis!

    A typical response expected from you. With your age, maturity and experience, I would have expected you to have responded more constructively and disagree with specific points that I have made rather then making a generalised statement that a typical teenager would make due to lack of life experience, humility, maturity and certainly AGE

    I do not expect you or everybody to agree with me. But the Majority of those, who has responded to support you after my post has in parts agreed with me.

    There are 7 points I made. The contributors on this thread have supported 4 points as follows:
    sdv wrote: »
    If I had a job to offer in my accounting practice I would not offer that place to an employee who does not have experience of working in an accounting practice. …….

    This point is agreed by Rinske as quoted in the post above
    Rinske wrote: »
    ……………… As employers can be picky, they are more likely to go for people with the experience/ education they prefer, over the 20 other candidates they have got……………
    sdv wrote: »
    Working in an accounting practice is different from working in an industry. In an accounting practice you are required to be more disciplined. You expected to perform………..…….


    The above point is agreed by POODLE who is independent and has her own views on other matters
    Poodle wrote: »
    lol

    sdv wrote: »
    Every job/task you are given is time constrained. You have to keep time sheets and account for any unchangeable time to your manager.( including making tea, having a fag, break time) …….

    This point is agreed by Rinske as quoted in the post above
    Rinske wrote: »
    ………….Working in practices is hard work and having done both practice and industry, I agree that the time pressure in practices is usually higher, ……………

    sdv wrote: »
    I would not take on anyone aged 54 and then teach them the practice ropes. It may take 2 to 3 years to fully train them. And then if you decide to stay with the firm, how many year’s benefit will I get out of you? The chances are that you will most probably move on. Should I take that risk? …….

    This point is agreed by BLOBBYH who is most probably aware of what employer’s requirements are then majority of us here on this forum
    blobbyh wrote: »
    …………….. We live in the real world with real world bosses who don't always toe the government line when it's their own money at stake and investing heavily in potential 'risk' employees.


    There are 3 points below that nobody has commented on. I do not think that they are un reasonable. If you have worked in a managerial position then you are more likely to agree with me.

    I hope someone in a managerial position may want to contribute on the points below.
    sdv wrote: »
    Due to your maturity, seniority and life experience, you are more likely to put me in an awkward position 3 to 6 months time by asking a raise in your pay and I won’t be able to fob you off easily compared to a younger inexperienced person. …….
    sdv wrote: »
    There is also a question of my company’s image! Young people – more vibrant, going places, up for a challenge, no grumbles. …….
    sdv wrote: »
    Of course, I don’t want to fall foul of the discrimination laws and so I will decline your application on the grounds of lack of work experience and not age…….

    You don’t have to agree with me, and that is fine, but to claim that my comments are stupid (unintelligent) without any justifications is just................

    I look forward to a constructive discussion.
  • RinskeRinske Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 2,453Registered
    sdv wrote: »
    There are 3 points below that nobody has commented on. I do not think that they are un reasonable. If you have worked in a managerial position then you are more likely to agree with me.

    I hope someone in a managerial position may want to contribute on the points below.

    You don’t have to agree with me, and that is fine, but to claim that my comments are stupid (unintelligent) without any justifications is just................

    I look forward to a constructive discussion.

    Even though I said I didn't agree on the age thing with you, I did agree with a number of points and I agree on those three points as well.
    sdv wrote: »
    Due to your maturity, seniority and life experience, you are more likely to put me in an awkward position 3 to 6 months time by asking a raise in your pay and I won’t be able to fob you off easily compared to a younger inexperienced person. …….

    The raise is an issue, and yes, I think that is true. Even though a number of younger people seem to have had a long time of expecting to be paid well above their "worth", with the recession, these either stayed where they are or ended up having to accept a lower paid job.

    One example is one of my ex boyfriends, although in a different country, he did not want to take a job, unless he got a certain amount paid, while he was trying to pursue a new career, after he was made redundant. This left him out of a job for six months, mainly because he didn't accept any lower pay, even though at the time it was well ahead of the recession and there were more jobs in his work than applicants.

    People who have been working a longer time in a certain career, usually earn more and although some are happy to start with a lower pay, depending on their personal situation this can or cannot be sustained for a long time, so a lot of them usually ask quite soon for a raise.
    sdv wrote: »
    There is also a question of my company’s image! Young people – more vibrant, going places, up for a challenge, no grumbles. …….

    I am not sure about this one in accountancy, but young people show more energetic, however older people show often more experienced. It strongly depend in the role you have to offer which kind of person you want. In most starter jobs, you won't have much contact with the customers, so it doesn't really matter, but anything higher, where you deal with customers, it will strongly depend on the job.

    For example if you have a handyman around the house, when you see a younger person you expect them to be modern, but might worry about his/ her experience.
    For the same job, if you see an older person doing the same job, you expect him/her to have the experience, but wonder if he/ she has knowledge of the latest technologies.
    sdv wrote: »
    Of course, I don’t want to fall foul of the discrimination laws and so I will decline your application on the grounds of lack of work experience and not age…….

    Most definitely true. Age discrimination can be easily avoided on interview level by giving experience as reason or any other. It's really easy to avoid and very hard to prove.
  • farmergilesfarmergiles Font Of All Knowledge Posts: 1,693Registered
    Glynis, 2 years ago to the month I had a barney with my boss, resulting in me losing my £19,500 position as a senior in practice. Since then I have had 4 months temping in a practice and 3 months travelling to Lincoln daily(50 mile each way), all for less than I was receiving in practice. I have applied for every practice position within a 50 mile radius of my home, both through agencies and from newspaper adverts. Eventually, after 22 months, I secured a position as a garage bookkeeper/cashier. This was from a newspaper advert. I have no experience in this sort of work but they thought I was a better bet than the other people who applied. I am also on £5k less than I was in practice but I am £14,500 better off than I was 6 months ago!!
    I have had the odd whinge on here about the other applicants obviously being better experienced/qualified than I was, normally followed by a "LOL", but I don't ever remember verbally attacking anyone for my not getting a job.
    Ageism has probably played a large part in my not getting a job, I've just had my 58th birthday but I've never let the "B******s" grind me down.

    All I can say to you is," get that big chip off your shoulder, use everyone you know to help you get a new position(friends will email you about vacancies if you are nice to them, mine did) and most of all, keep your pecker up and don't get depressed" But don't expect people to bend over backwards for you if you can't accept a bit of constructive criticism, I had to put up with people younger than my son telling me why I couldn't have a job and ,boy, did that stick in my craw. You just smile, thank them for their time, get up and walk out with your dignity intact.......then you kick seven shades of s**t out of the nearest litter bin...lol.

    I wish you luck with your search and hope that you find a position a lot faster than I did.
  • King of the MountainsKing of the Mountains Feels At Home Posts: 66Registered
    I have bought and sold a company and the staff came with it - both ways.
  • JacalinaJacalina New Member Posts: 13Registered
    Although I normally read these posts, I don’t normally get involved. However after reading through this thread I wanted to put my thoughts forward.

    Agencies – I do partly agree with the comments people have made regarding ‘fake jobs’. A few months back I signed up with some agencies as I wanted to take a step forward in my career. Although they were keen to get me in to chat and sign on to their books, very few actually contacted me after this despite claiming they should have “no trouble getting me a new role”. I made the effort to stay in touch with my contacts to ask if they had anything suitable for me. On several occasions I came across jobs on their websites that looked ideal for me, but when I asked the agency about them they simply said they had nothing. I found this rather misleading as the website clearly advertised jobs within my experience, knowledge and geographical location. That said I did deal with one agency that really made me feel like they had my best interests at heart. They regularly emailed me with updates and I was offered an interview for a role a few days after meeting them. Unfortunately the company I interviewed with, after leaving me hanging for a month, decided against recruiting at that time. I suppose that’s life. My experience with agencies has left me thinking that some do use ‘fake jobs’ as bait to get people on their books, however some are genuine and really do try to find jobs for people in this very tough climate.

    Glynis – I am very sorry to hear you’ve been made redundant, I feel for anyone who finds themselves in that position. However what I don’t understand is why you aren’t looking for other jobs in industry? While you’ve made it clear you would like to work in practice, I think without the experience to apply for these jobs you’re making it very difficult for yourself. You have said you have a lot of experience working in industry, so use this to your advantage. Apply for similar jobs to the one you’ve been doing. Even if it’s not what you want to be doing long term, surely it’s better to be employed and looking for other alternatives than being unemployed and trying to apply for jobs you’re not qualified for. The job market will eventually change and there will be more jobs in the future, but as people have said before, you will need to start at the bottom in practice regardless of your age.

    I have had a recent experience where my age was mentioned. I currently work in industry and I had an informal chat with an audit manager of an accountancy firm about possibly moving into audit and studying ACCA. While I was made aware it would involve starting in a junior role, which I was expecting and absolutely fine with, he did make a comment that I wasn’t expecting. He told me that at 28 years of age I was a ‘little bit old’ to be starting off in audit. I was completely taken aback. I had a career change when I was 25 and moved into finance. I studied my AAT and progressed within the company I was working for, but felt I wanted to expand my knowledge and qualifications. Never once has my age been an issue. I was so offended by his comment. It wasn’t like I was complaining about starting at the bottom and saying my age should entitle me to a higher role. I had stated that I accepted I would need to start from the bottom and prove myself. The point I’m trying to make Glynis is that age plays no factor in the grade of job you get. Despite being 28 and AAT qualified I would need to start in a junior role in audit as I have no experience whatsoever in that area. I sympathise with your feelings about your age as it is an awful feeling when people see it as a bad thing and you feel like it’s stopping you achieving your goals. However you just have to forget any reference people make to your age (some people just don’t think about what they are saying) and remember that no matter what age you are if you’re starting in a new area you have to start at the bottom. One the plus side use your experience and knowledge to prove how good you can be, you’ll be able to progress quicker than you think.

    Sorry this is so long, ha ha.
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