Used car buy and sell? Do I charge VAT for selling used car to my customers?

Guest007
Guest007 Registered Posts: 54 Epic contributor 🐘
Used car buy and sell? Do I charge VAT for selling used car to my customers?

Comments

  • LPalmer
    LPalmer Registered Posts: 25 Epic contributor 🐘
    It depends whether you paid VAT when you bought the car originally.

    If you did then you will have to charge VAT when you sell it,

    Regards
    Lewis
  • Guest007
    Guest007 Registered Posts: 54 Epic contributor 🐘
    If I am buying from the individual where I didn't pay VAT then I don't sell with VAT. it will be NET. right?
  • groundy
    groundy Registered Posts: 495 Dedicated contributor 🦉
    There is no VAT on cars unless you are a car dealer. I would be most concerned if you recovered VAT on a car purchase.
  • T.C.
    T.C. Registered, Tutor Posts: 1,448 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    Might seem a strange question, but are you VAT registered? Do you have an accountant?
  • LPalmer
    LPalmer Registered Posts: 25 Epic contributor 🐘
    Im guessing that you are a car dealer by the fact you were selling the used cars to your customers?

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/motors/selling-cars.htm - I would recommend checking out this link for additional help.
  • LPalmer
    LPalmer Registered Posts: 25 Epic contributor 🐘
  • LPalmer
    LPalmer Registered Posts: 25 Epic contributor 🐘
    I found a link on the HMRC website... Hope this helps :D

    HMRC Link
  • peaman
    peaman Registered Posts: 123 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    Do not charge VAT on sale, but you will have to pay VAT on the profit, under second hand scheme rules.

    Example - buy a car for £1000, sell for £1500, profit is £500. The £500 is deemed to be inclusive of VAT, so the VAT payable would be £83.33 (£500/6).

    Assuming you are VAT registered!
  • groundy
    groundy Registered Posts: 495 Dedicated contributor 🦉
    Do not charge VAT on sale, but you will have to pay VAT on the profit, under second hand scheme rules.

    Example - buy a car for £1000, sell for £1500, profit is £500. The £500 is deemed to be inclusive of VAT, so the VAT payable would be £83.33 (£500/6).

    Assuming you are VAT registered!

    This is only of you are a used car trader. If you are a normal business selling a car then there are no VAT implications
  • PGM
    PGM Registered Posts: 1,954 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    groundy wrote: »
    This is only of you are a used car trader. If you are a normal business selling a car then there are no VAT implications

    I didn't know that, I guess that's because selling vehicles isn't part of your normal trade. Does the same apply to selling vans etc?
  • peaman
    peaman Registered Posts: 123 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    It is the individual that is registered for VAT, not the business. If the individual is VAT registered they must charge VAT on all their business activities.

    The second hand goods scheme covers the selling of any second hand goods, not just cars.

    If the car was bought with the intention of selling on, VAT must be charged.
  • PGM
    PGM Registered Posts: 1,954 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    It is the individual that is registered for VAT, not the business. If the individual is VAT registered they must charge VAT on all their business activities.

    The second hand goods scheme covers the selling of any second hand goods, not just cars.

    If the car was bought with the intention of selling on, VAT must be charged.

    Interesting to know. How does this differ if any for companies?
  • peaman
    peaman Registered Posts: 123 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    Same rules apply, if a car or van was bought with the intention of selling on, it is a trading activity and VAT must be charged, if the business is VAT registered.

    However, new and second hand vans would have VAT included (unless bought privately) at purchase, so the second hand scheme will not apply and VAT must be charged on the whole sale price.
  • groundy
    groundy Registered Posts: 495 Dedicated contributor 🦉
    It is the individual that is registered for VAT, not the business. If the individual is VAT registered they must charge VAT on all their business activities.

    The second hand goods scheme covers the selling of any second hand goods, not just cars.

    If the car was bought with the intention of selling on, VAT must be charged.


    Completely agree but if the car was bought for business use and sold at a later date then there are no VAT implications. Maybe the OP could be a bit clearer about what they want to know.
  • peaman
    peaman Registered Posts: 123 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    That's right. It is the purchaser of the cars intention that is important. Bought for business use, no VAT implications, bought with the intention of selling, VAT charged on sale.

    From the wording of the initial question, it appears that a car is being bought for resale, though it is somewhat vague!
  • stevo5678
    stevo5678 Registered Posts: 325
    It is the individual that is registered for VAT, not the business. If the individual is VAT registered they must charge VAT on all their business activities.

    The second hand goods scheme covers the selling of any second hand goods, not just cars.

    If the car was bought with the intention of selling on, VAT must be charged.

    Yes but it is very difficult for HMRC to prove it was the businesses intention to sell on.

    Unless you are a car trader then the intention would not be deemed to be to make a profit.

    NO VAT CLAIMED WHEN BOUGHT = NO VAT PAID WHEN SOLD. It's that simple...Unless it is a car dealer or accountants have a habit of wanting clients to pay more to HMRC than they need to LOL.
  • peaman
    peaman Registered Posts: 123 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    Again we come back to the vague wording of the original posting, which refers to selling a car to customers, which implies this will not be a one off transaction.

    Of course, if it is not a one off transaction it would be easy for HMRC to prove intention.

    It is of no relevance what the individuals trade is, if they are VAT registered and they bought anything with an intention to make a profit, VAT should be charged.

    I am just stating the rules, if it was my client and it was a one off transaction, I would advise them to keep the transaction out of the business books and regard it as a personal.
  • stevo5678
    stevo5678 Registered Posts: 325
    Unless they have a habit of buying and selling cars it wouldn't be an issue at all...Unless the client wants to pay VAT.

    Plus if it went this route then there would be vat on the sale price not the profit. You need to be registered onto the margin scheme for vat, you can't just choose to apply it. If you are not on the scheme then you must apply standard vat.
  • peaman
    peaman Registered Posts: 123 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    The original question refers to customers (plural), which would make it appear that it is not a one off transaction.

    There is no need to register for the VAT margin scheme any more, you can start using it anytime you like.

    You can also continue to charge standard VAT for your other supplies.

    It would be foolish to claim VAT on the sale price, when they can choose to use the margin scheme.
  • stevo5678
    stevo5678 Registered Posts: 325
    The original question refers to customers (plural), which would make it appear that it is not a one off transaction.

    There is no need to register for the VAT margin scheme any more, you can start using it anytime you like.

    You can also continue to charge standard VAT for your other supplies.

    It would be foolish to claim VAT on the sale price, when they can choose to use the margin scheme.

    You are right you don't have to register but you do need to adopt it consistently (although you can choose to apply standard rules for individual transactions).

    However as far as I'm aware you cannot enter into the margin scheme unless your main trade is that of second hand products. IE unless car selling is their trade they cannot choose to 'dip in' and use the margin scheme to save VAT.

    Also if there was VAT shown separately on the original invoice you MUST apply standard VAT rules.

    I think the last issue supersedes my first point anyway.
  • peaman
    peaman Registered Posts: 123 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    I haven't heard anything about your main trade having to be selling second hand goods to apply the margin scheme!!

    There is nothing in the HMRC guidance, it just says that you can use both the margin and standards schemes for different sales activities.

    We had a client that had a VAT inspection and they bought a few cars/vans on the side and I applied the margin scheme for these sales. Their main trade was buying and selling food (standard rated). I told the inspector I used the margin scheme for the vehicle sales, and he didn't have a problem with this.


    Yes, if bought with VAT, then VAT will need to be charged on sale price, but the car is being bought from an individual, so it will not include VAT.
  • stevo5678
    stevo5678 Registered Posts: 325
    Fair enough, I just have't ever seen it applied in that direction, only the other way around. You can't argue with HMRC!

    It's a bit of a side argument anyway as this is only if they decide that they need to pay the VAT, which I don't think is an issue (unless they openly state that their intention was to make profit).
  • peaman
    peaman Registered Posts: 123 Beyond epic contributor 🧙‍♂️
    Well, you can't automatically assume that the VAT inspector is correct, they can be hit and miss, just like the helplines, but I haven't seen anything in HMRC's guide saying you can't do this.

    I agree, I would advise the client to keep the transactions out of the books and ignore the whole VAT situation. If they buy and sell several cars and they want to take the risk of not declaring them, that's their choice. We can only advise them what the rules are.

    I am not sure how HMRC would prove intention to make a profit? Presumably, they would not register as the cars owner or have insurance for each car (just a general trade insurance), and the cars would not be in their possession for long. Each of which may imply that they never intended to keep the vehicle for themselves.
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