Institute of Financial Accountants
Comments
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Hi John and welcome to the board.It's nice to know that IFA's can apply for full MAAT status but an MAAT wouldn't be able to apply for full IFA status (unless I have missed something (?!).
A MAAT can apply for full IFA under the APL route as opposed to the AAT route to entry. Via the AAT route we can get junior IFA membership.
I'd be interested to hear why you think it's nice that IFA's can get MAAT status? I take it you don't have a problem with people who've potentially never done any accounting exams becoming MAATs?0 -
Monsoon
I was under the assumption (wrongly) that an MAAT could not get full IFA status but a full IFA could apply for MAAT status. Therefore, my original post was of a sarcastic nature.
On the contrary, I actually find it insulting to MAAT's who have passed all the AAT exams for IFA's to be exempt from taking any AAT examinations.0 -
I've just realised.
My brilliant QBE accountant is studying AAT now because she wants to (level 3, I think she's bored to tears half the time, but she's looking forward to level 4).
I could sign her off through APL into the IFA. Then I can sign her off into the AAT via the IFA route. She can ditch her studies. (No, we won't do this - unless she fails her exams. Kidding - but SCARY as it's arguably a possibility?! The entry route, not the exam fails, I have every faith in her)
What a farce
This scenario does seem a little too easy and extremely unfair to those of us who have/still are studying hard to complete our exams.
One funny thing though would be that saying this did actually happen - the lucky beneficiary of the MAAT status would then be subjected to CPD - might actually sort the wheat from the chaff0 -
Does IFA not require CPD then?0
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I'm not 100% sure on that, but by the mere suggestion they can gain their IFA through ticking a handful of boxes and having it rubber stamped by a colleague (as in Monsoon's scenario above) and paying a fee, I'd not be too certain that the CPD if any, would really amount to muchDoes IFA not require CPD then?0 -
Monsoon
I was under the assumption (wrongly) that an MAAT could not get full IFA status but a full IFA could apply for MAAT status. Therefore, my original post was of a sarcastic nature.
On the contrary, I actually find it insulting to MAAT's who have passed all the AAT exams for IFA's to be exempt from taking any AAT examinations.
Ah.... Jolly good, just checking!One funny thing though would be that saying this did actually happen - the lucky beneficiary of the MAAT status would then be subjected to CPD - might actually sort the wheat from the chaff
IFA does have to do CPD - and to be fair, only on a CPD review visit would it sort the wheat from the chaff, and even then... My ex business partner is IFA and arguably his CPD was negligible. But then, if a MAAT did negligible CPD it might get picked up and it might not - it's all essentially self certified anyway.
But yes, the IFA do require members to do CPD. With the exception of the APL route of entry, it ought to be a robust professional body - and indeed by getting IFAC membership it must be doing something right.0 -
This topic seems to have gone very quiet, I have emailed the AAT twice but to date I have not received any reply or acknowledgement0
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i have worked in the accounting side of industry for over 18 years now and still found I was learning new principles etc. while studying AAT. Being pissed is putting it mildly if it is correct that someone could gain MAAT after just filling in a couple of forms and ticking a few boxes through the IFA route after the work the rest of us have put in.0
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i have worked in the accounting side of industry for over 18 years now and still found I was learning new principles etc. while studying AAT. Being pissed is putting it mildly if it is correct that someone could gain MAAT after just filling in a couple of forms and ticking a few boxes through the IFA route after the work the rest of us have put in.
Couldn't have put it better myself0 -
Here's a link to the syllabus for the IFA's 'Professional Financial Accountant' qualification:
http://www.ifa.org.uk/files/IFA%20PROFESSIONAL%20SYLLABI.pdf
The fact that an examination syllabus is available proves little, if anything. What matters is, are IFA 'accountants' required to pass these exams in order to become fully 'qualified' members of the IFA? No, they don't.
I personally know two IFA full members who have gained their membership through the experience route rather than by examination — both are in public practice.
Have you ever wondered why so many non-Chartered practices seem to attach themselves to IFA?
I have little doubt that the majority of IFA members have gained membership via the experience route. Why spend three years or more studying for exams when you can wait for another couple of years and get full membership anyway?
Google searches suggest that there are very few if any colleges providing tuition for the IFA exams — the one or two that I identified are private tuition colleges that seem to target overseas students looking for a student visa.
Here's the IFA's list of tuition providers: http://www.ifa.org.uk/training-providers/find-a-training-provider/ Not very busy, is it!0 -
In my opinion it's already too easy to become an MAAT.
I found the exams very easy due to the fact that the syllabus is so narrow. IE I knew pretty much what I was going to be examined on before entering the exam. Although I found the syllabus very relevant and also practical.
Yes I knew the ACCA syllabus in advance, but it is so big that it's impossible to Q spot.
I think that as more people are doing AAT and looking to become MIP then AAT should actually make the boundaries even harder to enter the body. In particular I think the step up from AAT to MIP should be more difficult as AAT MIP's are effectively competing with 'Accountants' from the ACA/ACCA (which requires far more demanding studies in terms of time, effort and ability). I know that many AAT MIP's in practice offer the same service as an ACCA MIP for EG but it is too easy in my opinion for someone to get the AAT completed get a bit of experience and call themselves an 'accountant'.
I am not slighting anyone on here as I have been impressed by many AAT MIP's knowledge on here, as you can't beat real experience. It is the AAT's with not very much practicing experience calling themselves accountants that I would be concerned with from the professions perspective.
On another note, having done AAT, then ACCA, now ATT and hopefully CTA I have to say that I expect CTA to be no walk in the park. From my research it is as hard (probably harder) as the final levels of ACA/ACCA with the pass rates being ridiculously low.
Well I better get my head down into some ATT books now
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Just out of interest, how did you find ATT after ACCA? And did you take the advanced tax paper as part of ACCA. I did 3.2 (as it was then) but I still feel woefully uncertain about tax and keep thinking that it might be a good idea.0
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To be honest, it's a bit strange as although I have done tax exams for AAT and ACCA I am finding it a little bit of a culture shock just focusing on tax. But I get the impression that (as I metioned about AAT) the syllabus is fairly focused (I used the word narrow for AAT) for each exam so no big surprises. My biggest concern is to not get complacent thinking Ive done ACCA so it will be a cakewalk. So as long as i put in plenty of practice think I will be ok.
I have taken a liking for tax, and am enjoying it. I think that if you are interested then you will really enjoy it. ATT feels like a very practical course and instantly relevant to practice. CTA seems to be a different beast difficulty wise but each step at a time has always been my motto.
I didn't actually do Adv. Tax for ACCA due to restrictions with my study provider so had to choose Adv.Perf. Man. and Adv. Auditing for my finals (phew glad I passed those bad boys as they were a nightmare!). Apparently P6 Adv. Tax exempts you from an important CTA paper.
Technically I could of gone straight into CTA but as my work is not purely tax focused I felt ATT would help me move into another direction.
You thinking of doing ATT or CTA?0 -
ATT - definitely not CTA - that scares me and I don't have the time to devote to it. I would like to learn how to use legislation properly. I work in a small practice so the tax I use is generally basic but I am by nature very unconfident and check things thirty times before I advise people so I hope it would give me a bit more confidence.
Sorry to the OP for going OT but I have found it useful so thank you!0 -
BW, the reason I took ATT was because I didn't know enough - AAT on its own is not enough and while I'm grateful for the MIP criteria from my career's perspective, I really wasn't ready even though I passed their criteria for experience. Not nearly ready, but I didn't know any better at the time. What I've learned from ATT is absolutely brilliant so I thoroughly recommend it!0
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Bluewednesday wrote: »I work in a small practice so the tax I use is generally basic but I am by nature very unconfident and check things thirty times before I advise people so I hope it would give me a bit more confidence.
Annette is definitely one of those accountants who doesn't realise just how good she is! I speak with Annette on a regular basis and she definitely knows her stuff!! More confidence Mrs because you are very good at what you do!0 -
The possibility of a MIP license being just a bit too easy to obtain is something of a concern.
It is difficult to see how success in the AAT exams/assessments along with just one year's practical experience is enough to be safely let loose on the public. As Monsoon candidly admits, at the time newly-qualified MAATs tend to think that they're ready, but the reality is that they don't know what they don't know.
I don't work for a practice, nor am I a MIP (yet). If I were to go down that route — something which may happen, given the difficulty that this 50-plus FMAAT has been experiencing in obtaining regular work over the past couple of years or so — then I would be very likely to stick with the sector that I have the most experience in, which is charities.
I know that what I'm about to suggest will be controversial, and that I'll quickly be shot down by MAAT MIPs who are running very professional and successful practices, but given that it takes ACCA and ACA accountants three years of practical experience to qualify as such, and a further two years post-qualifying experience in order to obtain their MIP license, isn't there a case for restricting full AAT MIP licenses to Fellow members? By a full MIP license I mean one which allows an AAT MIP to compete directly with ACCA and ACA accountants, offering a comprehensive range of accountancy, business and taxation services — excluding audit, of course.
It takes one year of practical experience to become an MAAT, and a further five years of experience, with increasing responsibility, to become a Fellow member. I suggest that the five years of post-qualifying experience and CPD will be of more benefit in running a professional practice than the ACCAs and ACAs gain from studying their largely irrelevant advanced papers.
Okay, I said it would be controversial didn't I?0 -
It takes one year of practical experience to become an MAAT, and a further five years of experience, with increasing responsibility, to become a Fellow member. I suggest that the five years of post-qualifying experience and CPD will be of more benefit in running a professional practice than the ACCAs and ACAs gain from studying their largely irrelevant advanced papers.
Okay, I said it would be controversial didn't I?
I think this last bit largely undoes any controversy. I must admit as I read your post I was thinking to myself 'but the increased technicality of the chartered papers is irrelevant to the needs of the vast majority of AAT MIP clients' which is pretty much what you say here.
I think the issue is that a great majority of chartered accountants (and chartered accountancy practices) don't actually do the work that they're qualified to do. Those examinations go in to great detail of the financing of large publicly listed groups of companies and they teach their students how to structure such a group to take advantage of the various rules on group-relief as relates to corporation tax losses and capital losses intra-group; they cover the minutia of disclosure requirements for 'Earnings Per Share' calculations and those candidates are very well informed of the residency issues of business men and women with homes and businesses in various countries and how that affects their residence, ordinary residence and domicile... I could go on. In reality, though, many chartered accountants spend their days preparing statutory accounts and tax returns for micro-businesses (to use the Government's terminology).
I do agree that it probably is a little too simple to become MIP, particularly if you've no experience of working in a practice, and that there is a significant difference between the practising licence requirements of the chartered institutes compared with the AAT, but I think there's a middle ground - the AAT MIP criteria should be slightly higher, but also the chartered requirements are way higher than they need to be for the kind of work that most chartered accounting firms actually carry out.0 -
I thought they were tightening up the MIP criteria, I currently have the ICB practice Licence for bookkeeping, someone on here suggested that when I pass my final exam I apply for the AAT practice Licence and ditch the ICB one but I thought I would have no chance of getting it as even though I have nearly 20 years' experience in bookkeeping to TB including end of year adjustments and Payroll I certainly don't know enough to do actual final accounts.
In fact I even had to ask on the Forum how a relative could notify the HMRC that she had underclaimed wear and tear for 2 years on her SA.
If it is possibly to get the Practice licence for just parts of accounting services you already had experience in then I possibly would do it.
I would hope that most of us would be sensible enough not to go setting up in practice and try to work in areas we are unsure about, if a lot of us did it would certainly bring the qualification in for ridicule.0 -
There's a very helpful person at AAT who I dealt with throughout my membership and MIP application process, and I emailed her this morning with the sentiments of this thread.
She's very kindly just called me back and it sounds as though, when the two qualifications were originally 'mapped', APL wasn't a route to IFA membership, and the AAT are now liaising with IFA over the matter.
She obviously couldn't say much more than that at the moment but I rather got the impression that IFA didn't tell AAT that they'd changed their entry requirements!
Interesting stuff!0 -
If it is possibly to get the Practice licence for just parts of accounting services you already had experience in then I possibly would do it.
It is indeed. In fact 'possible' isn't really the word; it's exactly how the MIP scheme does work. When you apply for MIP status you have to select the various services that you would like, and are qualified / sufficiently experienced to offer and, for each service that you apply to be licenced for you need to provide evidence of experience and / or qualifications, and you need to show that your CPD plans cover that area too. So, for example, you could apply for a MIP licence purely for Bookkeeping Services.I would hope that most of us would be sensible enough not to go setting up in practice and try to work in areas we are unsure about, if a lot of us did it would certainly bring the qualification in for ridicule.
That too is a part of the MIP application process. The recent changes now require that we sit a 'Professional Standards' assessment (as well as a Money Laundering assessment). A key aspect of 'Professional Standards' is that we must not accept enagements for work which we're not qualified to carry out; it's a very important part of showing 'professional competence and due care'.0 -
I know that what I'm about to suggest will be controversial, and that I'll quickly be shot down by MAAT MIPs who are running very professional and successful practices, but given that it takes ACCA and ACA accountants three years of practical experience to qualify as such, and a further two years post-qualifying experience in order to obtain their MIP license, isn't there a case for restricting full AAT MIP licenses to Fellow members? By a full MIP license I mean one which allows an AAT MIP to compete directly with ACCA and ACA accountants, offering a comprehensive range of accountancy, business and taxation services — excluding audit, of course.
It takes one year of practical experience to become an MAAT, and a further five years of experience, with increasing responsibility, to become a Fellow member. I suggest that the five years of post-qualifying experience and CPD will be of more benefit in running a professional practice than the ACCAs and ACAs gain from studying their largely irrelevant advanced papers.
While I agree with this in principle, the problem you have is that any MAAT offering services to the public HAS to be enrolled on the MIP scheme. AAT student members are allowed to work for themselves. So, what you are proposing would mean that as soon as the student becomes a MAAT, they may have to jack in their business - which is why folk like me can never become ACCA/ACA, hence why I went down the ATT route. Or they operate without a licence just like student members can, but then they are unregulated and it doesn't safeguard the public any, or indeed give them access to the valuable resources that make us better at our jobs.
I am unemployable due to mental health issues. Without the AAT, I would be likely unemployed on sick benefit and wouldn't have the amazing things in my life that I do. The AAT has given me something that I love, something that I've built and something to be really proud of. Yes, I was too much of a newbie at first, but I didn't make any major mistakes and I'm sure most MIPs are conscientious enough to know what they can and can't do and ask where needed - this is why mentoring is so important.
Also, I got my MAAT 2 years after passing my final exams - because of my health issues I didn't get my Unit 10 report done for 2 years. That means that while I should have been a FMAAT last year based on exam passes, I have to wait another two years.
The main problem with your proposal is that it is such a radical shakeup to the current system. The AAT recently reviewed their MIP regulations and it was agreed that the "provisional licence" scheme should be introduced instead.
That said, I'd want 1 years experience to qualify as a MAAT and at least 2 years to get MIP. 1 year really is far too short.
I would say I only really felt good enough to do this 2 years ago (or rather, that was when my confidence grew enough - I was certainly competent before that, but kept my services at a more basic level). So maybe 2-3 years to get MIP ought to be a nice middle ground?0 -
I think the issue is that a great majority of chartered accountants (and chartered accountancy practices) don't actually do the work that they're qualified to do.
Totally agree, I think its the experience of working in a practice while studying such qualifications which is significant.0 -
But a significant number of CCAB qualified accountants (whether in industry, public sector or private practice) do actually do the work covered in some of the more advanced papers.0
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I do not know enough about this forum to pick just bits out of posts to quote, so here goes:-
I definitely don't think that if you leave school and gain MAAT straight from there that 1 year experience is enough to get MIP and set up in practice. However if like a few of us on this forum we have been working in some form of accounting function for a few years and then get around to getting qualified then it is a different story.
Now I know that you can get MIp for certain elements that you feel confident enough in and have plenty experience I will go down that road, especially with mentoring, however like Monsoon I do have some health issues which affect employment which is part of the reason why I applied for My ICB Practice Licence to have a backup if I end up out of work again. It is nothing major, however I always feel I should declare it in interviews as then if I have a relapse as happened last year I don't get fired. The reason I mention this in the post is that I know you have to have steps in place for continuation of practice and I don't know how to go about that in my situation as I have done a search on the AAT site and can only find 2 MIPs in Ayrshire and I don't think I have met them at any of the branch meetings.0
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