Institute of Financial Accountants
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There's a very helpful person at AAT who I dealt with throughout my membership and MIP application process, and I emailed her this morning with the sentiments of this thread.
She's very kindly just called me back and it sounds as though, when the two qualifications were originally 'mapped', APL wasn't a route to IFA membership, and the AAT are now liaising with IFA over the matter.
She obviously couldn't say much more than that at the moment but I rather got the impression that IFA didn't tell AAT that they'd changed their entry requirements!
Interesting stuff!
That's very interesting. Thanks Mike.0 -
But a significant number of CCAB qualified accountants (whether in industry, public sector or private practice) do actually do the work covered in some of the more advanced papers.
Absolutely there are, yes. Particularly those who are registered auditors.
I think the point that's being made, though, is that if you consider those chartered accountants who don't do anything more than pretty basic compliance work, there is still quite a difference in licencing requirements between their bodies and AAT.0 -
The AAT is a respected body and I am proud to be a member, I passed exams to become a member, I understand that other bodies such as ACCA ACA etc get direct entry but direct entry via IFA I think not. Why does the AAT not offer an affiliate membership rather than full otherwise it makes a fool of all the students studying to pass exams, I was so angry when I heard about this I joined the ATT as a student, mabe they did me a favour!0
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There's a very helpful person at AAT who I dealt with throughout my membership and MIP application process, and I emailed her this morning with the sentiments of this thread.
She's very kindly just called me back and it sounds as though, when the two qualifications were originally 'mapped', APL wasn't a route to IFA membership, and the AAT are now liaising with IFA over the matter.
She obviously couldn't say much more than that at the moment but I rather got the impression that IFA didn't tell AAT that they'd changed their entry requirements!
If this were so, it would be worrying enough. However, to the best of my knowledge the IFA has always offered membership to qualified-by-experience accountants. They certainly did in 2006, when a personal friend of mine — an excellent QBE accounts and tax-return preparer, I hasten to add — gained fully-qualified IFA membership via this route.
I hope to be corrected, but I strongly suspect that this unfortunate situation has resulted from a lack of due diligence on the part of the AAT management.
Beside being very annoying to those of us who have worked hard for our AAT qualification, what is very worrying is the potential damage that could be done to our reputation.
As we know, the term accountant, unlike auditor, is not a protected title here in the UK. However, other than the money laundering regulations, there is only one sector where recognition of accounting qualifications has the backing of legislation — the independent examination of charity accounts. From the Charities Act 1993 (my emphasis):Who can carry out an independent examination?
The short answer
The charity trustees should take steps to ensure that a competent examination takes place and they will therefore consider carefully the suitability and eligibility of a prospective independent examiner.
In more detail
An independent examiner as described in section 43(3)(a) of the 1993 Act is “an independent person who is reasonably believed by the charity trustees to have the requisite ability and practical experience to carry out a competent examination of the accounts”. Once a charity’s gross income exceeds £250,000, the examiner must be a person who is a member of one of the following bodies listed in the 1993 Act and should be allowed by the rules of that body to undertake the role of independent examiner:- Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales
- Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland
- Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland
- Association of Chartered Certified Accountants
- Association of Authorised Public Accountants
- Association of Accounting Technicians
- Association of International Accountants
- Chartered Institute of Management Accountants
- Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators
- Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy
- Fellow of the Association of Charity Independent Examiners
The AAT should to carry out an audit of MAATs who have gained this status via the IFA route. If those MAATs cannot provide evidence of having successfully completed relevant examinations of at least the same standard as those of the AAT, then that fact will have to influence the likelihood of obtaining a MIP licence, or of their being permitted to carry out the independent examination of charity accounts.0 -
While I agree with this in principle, the problem you have is that any MAAT offering services to the public HAS to be enrolled on the MIP scheme. AAT student members are allowed to work for themselves. So, what you are proposing would mean that as soon as the student becomes a MAAT, they may have to jack in their business...
Monsoon, the point I'm making is that I struggle to see how one or two years of experience is anywhere near enough to obtain a full MIP license — by full MIP license I mean one which allows an AAT MIP to compete directly with ACCA and ACA accountants, offering a comprehensive range of accountancy, business and taxation services, including complex cases and investigations.
I don't want to sound patronising, but AAT students really oughtn't to be doing more than book-keeping, with perhaps payroll and VAT returns if qualified and experienced enough to do so. Once that student qualifies as an MAAT, this is what they can be licensed for.
The new MAAT can build up their experience — perhaps with the guidance of an experienced MIP as a mentor — and consequently increase the range and depth of the work that they're licensed to carry out.
After five years or so of such increasing responsibility, they'll be ready to apply for, and obtain, FMAAT status, and of course their full MIP license. The new FMAAT is now ready to compete directly with any high street accountancy practice for non-audit business, and CPD will keep them in a position to do so.
Perhaps this is how the new MIP regime is supposed to work — I hope so. However, I suspect that full MIP licenses can still be obtained well before five years of valuable real-world experience has been gained — this is what I struggle to accept.
Okay, if an MAAT goes on to obtain the ATT qualification within five years of obtaining MAAT, then this has to be recognised by the licensing system. However, unlike yourself most AAT MIPs don't go on to study the ATT.0 -
I don't see AAT ever limiting the licenced MiP scheme to just FMAATs, and nor should they.
I think a MAAT employed in practice would probably be better placed than a FMAAT in industry when it comes to practice management, notes and disclosures to the accounts, compliance, tax investigations, tax planning, etc, as the employed MAAT in practice would deal with all of this on a day to day basis (together with their manager and/or partner/director).
However, as an AAT level 4 student, and having attended an AAT-run MiP introduction day, I do think it has become too easy to become MAAT qualified (i.e. exams have gone from being 3hrs 15mins to 2hrs 30mins and only requiring 1 year's worth of work experience) and a licenced MiP (i.e. I don't think a practicing licence should be given out to anyone unless they have at least 2 years worth of experience of actually working in a pratice).
I think it is slightly worrying that MAATs, who have never worked in practice, can get practicing licences; imagine if doctors and teachers could get licences without ever working in hospitals and schools! Lets just hope the public and the media don't find out what the AAT is doing otherwise we are all going to have to re-train with the ACCA!
I use 2 years as the bench mark as this would bring the AAT in line with the ATT but 3 years would be better; however 1 year at best seems slightly light and at worst seems like a cynical way to get more MAAT subscription fee revenues (a major source of income for the AAT).
I hope what I have written does not offend anyone; I haven't written it to cause any offence; I've just written it to add my thoughts (not fully formed or mature thoughts- I've only been involved in accounts as a student for 2 years) to the mix.0 -
Monsoon, the point I'm making is that I struggle to see how one or two years of experience is anywhere near enough to obtain a full MIP license — by full MIP license I mean one which allows an AAT MIP to compete directly with ACCA and ACA accountants, offering a comprehensive range of accountancy, business and taxation services, including complex cases and investigations.
Two things here, firstly the AAT only award a practicing licence to a member in particular areas and only when they have sufficient experience to demonstrate competence at such anyway, time itself isn’t necessarily sufficient for someone to be come competent – maybe an issue of quantity over quality. Secondly, not every business needs an accountant that is on par with a chartered body. That's not to discredit the AAT in anyway (far from it) but there are different service levels required from the profession.
Neil0 -
...time itself isn’t necessarily sufficient for someone to be come competent – maybe an issue of quantity over quality...
Neil, I'm glad that we agree on this. This is why it's so important that the issue of IFA qualified-by-experience members apparently being able to apply directly for MAAT status is tackled ASAP.
Not only is it the case that time itself isn’t necessarily sufficient for someone to be come competent, time on it's own should never be enough to become an MAAT!...not every business needs an accountant that is on par with a chartered body...
Not every AAT MIP needs to offer a range and depth of services that is on par with a chartered body — but if they do, then I suggest that they should be Fellow members.
Those five years of valuable post-MAAT practical experience will put the FMAAT on a more equal footing with their ACCA and ACA competitors, although of course the chartereds will have studied for many more exams — most of them largely irrelevant.
Remember, in order to get their ACCA or ACA MIP license the chartereds require five years of practical experience, with increasing responsibility.0 -
This is a very interesting thread, and I hope the AAT take note of everyone's concerns. I too am very concerned that it seems possible to become an MAAT without taking any exams, after all the hard work we put in. I can't say I've seen anywhere on this thread what happens when these IFA qualified MAATs wish to become MIPs. Maybe the AAT have stricter controls here and we are jumping to conclusions a bit.I think a MAAT employed in practice would probably be better placed than a FMAAT in industry when it comes to practice management, notes and disclosures to the accounts, compliance, tax investigations, tax planning, etc, as the employed MAAT in practice would deal with all of this on a day to day basis (together with their manager and/or partner/director).
...I don't think a practicing licence should be given out to anyone unless they have at least 2 years worth of experience of actually working in a pratice). I think it is slightly worrying that MAATs, who have never worked in practice, can get practicing licences;
I agree with all of this. It amazes me how people want to set up their own practice without ever having worked in one, it would be similar to me wanting to buy my own pub without ever having worked in a pub! You don't know if you would even like it. I agree with previous comments that more work experience should be required to get full MIP status than MAAT, but five years post qualification seems a bit excessive in some cases, such as if people have been working in practice for a few years already before reaching MAAT.
However, I sympathise with people in Monsoon's case. Perhaps in these situations a part MIP licence could be granted for say bookkeeping and payroll, and with the support of a mentor to build up experience and confidence the full licence could be granted a couple of years later - which I believe the new MIP mentoring scheme is doing anyway.0 -
Neil, I'm glad that we agree on this.
I'm not sure that we do. Just because someone has the five years for FMAAT doesn't necessarily mean they may be more competent than someone with two years. Ok, they have more experience but does that automatically mean that they are more skilled? When deciding someone's competency it should be done so based on a range of factors bearing in mind quantity doesn’t always demonstrate quality and experience gained during study should also factor.Not every AAT MIP needs to offer a range and depth of services that is on par with a chartered body — but if they do, then I suggest that they should be Fellow members.
Those five years of valuable post-MAAT practical experience will put the FMAAT on a more equal footing with their ACCA and ACA competitors, although of course the chartered will have studied for many more exams — most of them largely irrelevant.
So how do you propose the MiP scheme works for those who don't and/or won't offer services on par with the chartered bodies? The problem here is that the AAT could end up with a two tier qualification structure and is potentially entering territory it wasn't/isn't intended to - if someone wants to work on a chartered level it could be argued they should become chartered.
Neil0 -
We still don't know if the back-door route to MAAT status for APL-route IFA members has actually been used successfully by anyone, or whether the AAT have procedures in place to identify and reject such applications. I doubt thet they do, but they might.
Has anyone who emailed a couple of weeks ago heard anything back from the AAT, other than an acknowledgement?
Rozzi and Reader, I share your concern about industry-trained MAATs and FMAATs moving straight into practice. I'm an industry-trained FMAAT, and I wouldn't even attempt the simplest SA return as my taxation knowledge is years old — I'd definitely require further study and relevant experience before I could do the accounts and tax return for even a whelk stall.
I like to think that the AAT consider the scope of experience when assessing applications for MIP licenses? I'm sure that they do.0 -
...Just because someone has the five years for FMAAT doesn't necessarily mean they may be more competent than someone with two years...
Who's suggesting that FMAATs are necessarily more competent?...So how do you propose the MiP scheme works for those who don't and/or won't offer services on par with the chartered bodies?...
The MIP scheme already caters for those who don't and/or won't offer services on par with the chartered bodies by licensing them in the areas that they do want to offer services. What's the problem with keeping this system?0 -
I get less and less concerned about this as time goes by.
There are crap accountants of all denominations.
Making entry criteria more difficult only tends to punish the genuine and not the charlatans.
I like the AATs approach of assessing your own ability (subject to them checking your application thoroughly and asking you to back up any statements made). When I first became an MIP many moons ago I had a pretty typical background with more than 5 years experience in practice. I was tax manager at a top 50 firm and yet still my application was subject to further questioning about my ability and experience.
People say it is all too easy to get MIP status but I do think they are pretty thorough in making sure you document your experience before they hand out a licence. Similarly when I extended my licence to cover other areas I had to provide all my CPD records in that area for the past two years.
There is only so much a professional body can and should do. Remember that they are acting for us as it's paying members first and foremost and protecting the public second. AAT is and always will be a mid-tier professional body and it's controls and regulations should reflect that. I think it actually punches above it's weight in terms of MIP monitoring and support.0 -
I certainly would not be happy if they changed the system, not all of us want to operate on the same level, I certainly would be quite happy with bookkeeping to TB, Payroll, CIS, VAT and the rare simple straightforward SA for the likes of a CIS Subbie.
I have no interest in final accounts for limited companies etc. so why should I be penalised in not being able to get cover for doing work like that or having to keep my ICB Membership & Practice Licence.0 -
Reader, have you heard something that the rest of us haven't? Who's suggesting that the AAT restrict MIP licenses to FMAATs?
You are:The possibility of a MIP license being just a bit too easy to obtain is something of a concern.
It is difficult to see how success in the AAT exams/assessments along with just one year's practical experience is enough to be safely let loose on the public. As Monsoon candidly admits, at the time newly-qualified MAATs tend to think that they're ready, but the reality is that they don't know what they don't know.
I don't work for a practice, nor am I a MIP (yet). If I were to go down that route — something which may happen, given the difficulty that this 50-plus FMAAT has been experiencing in obtaining regular work over the past couple of years or so — then I would be very likely to stick with the sector that I have the most experience in, which is charities.
I know that what I'm about to suggest will be controversial, and that I'll quickly be shot down by MAAT MIPs who are running very professional and successful practices, but given that it takes ACCA and ACA accountants three years of practical experience to qualify as such, and a further two years post-qualifying experience in order to obtain their MIP license, isn't there a case for restricting full AAT MIP licenses to Fellow members? By a full MIP license I mean one which allows an AAT MIP to compete directly with ACCA and ACA accountants, offering a comprehensive range of accountancy, business and taxation services — excluding audit, of course.
It takes one year of practical experience to become an MAAT, and a further five years of experience, with increasing responsibility, to become a Fellow member. I suggest that the five years of post-qualifying experience and CPD will be of more benefit in running a professional practice than the ACCAs and ACAs gain from studying their largely irrelevant advanced papers.
Okay, I said it would be controversial didn't I?
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Who's suggesting that FMAATs are necessarily more competent?
Then why suggest only FMAATs get a full MiP licence?The MIP scheme already caters for those who don't and/or won't offer services on par with the chartered bodies by licensing them in the areas that they do want to offer services. What's the problem with keeping this system?
Nothing is wrong with it, but you seem to be suggesting one rule for FMAAT's and another for less experienced – only a full licence for FMAATs.
Also, what of the MiPs who provide the full range of services offered by chartered firms (and therefore would require a full licence) but only offer these services to smaller businesses whose affairs are less complex?
Neil0 -
deanshepherd wrote: »I get less and less concerned about this as time goes by.
There are crap accountants of all denominations.
Making entry criteria more difficult only tends to punish the genuine and not the charlatans.
I like the AATs approach of assessing your own ability (subject to them checking your application thoroughly and asking you to back up any statements made). When I first became an MIP many moons ago I had a pretty typical background with more than 5 years experience in practice. I was tax manager at a top 50 firm and yet still my application was subject to further questioning about my ability and experience.
People say it is all too easy to get MIP status but I do think they are pretty thorough in making sure you document your experience before they hand out a licence. Similarly when I extended my licence to cover other areas I had to provide all my CPD records in that area for the past two years.
There is only so much a professional body can and should do. Remember that they are acting for us as it's paying members first and foremost and protecting the public second. AAT is and always will be a mid-tier professional body and it's controls and regulations should reflect that. I think it actually punches above it's weight in terms of MIP monitoring and support.
100% support to all of that.
The only change I'd like to see to the MIP criteria is maybe 2 years experience not 1, in each of the licencing areas. Other than that, I think it's ok.
This discussion has detoured a bit off the original topic. I think we are all in agreement that all MAATs should have passed AAT or equivalent exams and have the requisite experience, and that APL with no exams will devalue the qualification.
Let's look at the MIP tangent another way - if AAT MIPs were crap by virtue of them having too little experience - wouldn't it be industry common-knowledge and wouldn't there be too many complaints for the AAT to ignore? As the AAT see the MIP scheme as fit for purpose (which I think it is) and as they clearly haven't had any major problem with newbie or rubbish MIPS, then I really don't think a major drastic change is necessary - because MIPs are clearly doing their jobs right
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This discussion has detoured a bit off the original topic. I think we are all in agreement that all MAATs should have passed AAT or equivalent exams and have the requisite experience, and that APL with no exams will devalue the qualification.
This is absolutely the point.
If a membership body has an examination requirement for entry, unless you have equivalent papers by another examining body you should not be allowed entry! Whether it's the AAT or not. It just stands to reason.
Following on from Dean's post about being less and less bothered about the hierarchy, this comes from experience and good CPD. I certainly don't worry about who's dog is bigger anymore. As for me, I'm a Chiwawa and if you want to play the big dog game I will show you my sharks teeth and lion roar!! :001_smile:
Regards
Dean0 -
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That is brilliant! Haha - Blatantly stolen
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Official AAT response
Hi there,
Thanks to everyone who’s taken part in this conversation so far. The recent observations and discussions about the AAT/IFA route to full membership have raised some interesting points which we’d like to provide an official response to.
With that in mind, please read the following response from Gemma Cozens, Membership Progression Manager at AAT.
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It is important for us to provide some reassurance about the routes to AAT full membership. AAT has an alternative routes framework in place, within which it has agreed a route in to its full membership level for a number of selected bodies. An alternative route is only awarded following a rigorous and robust system of mapping which ensures the alternative qualification is equivalent in standard to its own, both in terms of syllabus coverage and assessment criteria.
The framework ensures that the standard of AAT professional members is not diluted in any way, as all applicants for full membership meet the same level of competence and knowledge which is achieved through a combination of an approved alternative qualification, practical work experience, a professional recommendation, and in some cases, such as for IFA full members, an additional Test of Professional Competence. AAT assesses all applications for full membership on their own merit to ensure that professional members meet the standards of the Association.
Specifically looking at the route AAT has in place with IFA, and the points raised about the possibility of progressing to AAT full membership without holding a professional qualification, the IFA’s Professional Standards Department has confirmed that attainment of IFA full membership via the Accreditation of Prior Learning route is normally only awarded to those with existing membership of Chartered and Certified Accountancy Bodies. Where such an application is received, it is submitted for assessment alongside evidence of previous qualifications, work based evidence and a professional referee.
As a result of the recent discussions around this matter, at AAT we’ll be conducting our own internal review of the route we have in place with IFA to ensure that it continues to meet the criteria set out within our alternative routes framework. With only a handful of IFA full members successfully elected to full membership to date, we maintain that AAT’s assessment process assures standards have been met and we will ensure that they continue to do so.
Turning to the concerns raised in this thread about AAT practising licences, AAT has had its scheme for Members in Practice in place for many years, and we ensure that it is continually reviewed so that it remains fit for purpose. The most recent guidelines and regulations have been in place since October 2011 and applicants now wishing to obtain a practising licence have to meet additional criteria.
These include:- submitting evidence of practice management experience
- successfully completing two diagnostic tests covering the anti-money laundering legislation and professional ethics
- submitting a statement from a professional referee.
We are committed to ensuring that the scheme for members in practice remains relevant and is reflective of good practice in the wider accounting profession. We have a responsibility to ensure new members in practice are not only technically competent but also aware of obligations that are vital to running a business; this is why we have introduced the additional licence criteria. By raising the standards of the scheme we are continuing to uphold the reputation of all AAT members in practice in the marketplace.
If you have further enquiries, please get in touch with our Membership Support team by emailing membershipdevelopment@aat.org.uk.
Thank you,
Gemma Cozens
Membership Progression Manager*AAT Essentials - AAT's accounting and finance short courses*
*Watch: 6 reasons accountants make great friends*
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Thanks a lot Stuart and Gemma for providing such a detailed response.... Specifically looking at the route AAT has in place with IFA, and the points raised about the possibility of progressing to AAT full membership without holding a professional qualification, the IFA’s Professional Standards Department has confirmed that attainment of IFA full membership via the Accreditation of Prior Learning route is normally only awarded to those with existing membership of Chartered and Certified Accountancy Bodies. Where such an application is received, it is submitted for assessment alongside evidence of previous qualifications, work based evidence and a professional referee.
... The most recent guidelines and regulations have been in place since October 2011 and applicants now wishing to obtain a practising licence have to meet additional criteria.
These include:- submitting evidence of practice management experience
- successfully completing two diagnostic tests covering the anti-money laundering legislation and professional ethics
- submitting a statement from a professional referee.
These two points in particular reassure me on my concerns, and I'm pleased they are in place.0 -
Rozzi Rainbow wrote: »Thanks a lot Stuart and Gemma for providing such a detailed response.
These two points in particular reassure me on my concerns, and I'm pleased they are in place.
Seconded! Many thanks for the response. :thumbup: to the AAT 0 -
I am glad about that response, only thing is it looks like I can forget about a practice licence even for bookkeeping and Payroll etc. as I have zilch practice management experience.
Damm, means i will need to carry on paying two sets of annual membership fees.0 -
Nope, it means you'll get a "provisional licence" which means you have to do PM CPD over the next couple of years to get a full licence - so you can be a MIP
Thanks,
I will no doubt be back on nearer when my ICB Licence runs out in November (if I have passed Personal Tax) to get more help with my application.
I had just been in that section reading through the licence application guidelines and it was saying there Practice management experience also.0 -
Gemma,
I'm very pleased that you're aware of our concerns, and that they're being taken seriously. I believe those concerns have been fully articulated on this thread, and I'm confident that your internal review will address them equally fully.
Perhaps I can make a small contribution towards your review? I doubt that you'll need to labour too long trying to establish whether or not the IFA APL route is normally only available to qualified Chartereds:...IFA’s Professional Standards Department has confirmed that attainment of IFA full membership via the Accreditation of Prior Learning route is normally only awarded to those with existing membership of Chartered and Certified Accountancy Bodies. Where such an application is received, it is submitted for assessment alongside evidence of previous qualifications, work based evidence and a professional referee...
Hopefully I'll be corrected, but I don't expect so. IFA full membership via the Accreditation of Prior Learning route is available to anyone who can claim, and have substantiated, five years of the appropriate mix of relevant experience.
Two forms: http://www.ifa.org.uk/files/MembershipSignupForm.doc and http://www.ifa.org.uk/images/files/APL%20Assessment%20Checklist.doc plus of course the accompanying fee, will do just fine.
I did suspect that there would only have been a few MAATs elected via the IFA route, and I'm glad that it is so.
I like to think that we can still welcome exam-qualified IFA members into the AAT as our fellow professionals, and that if any of the few who have already joined aren't exam-qualified then this will be a consideration should any wish to apply for a MIP licence.
As for your explanation about the MIP licensing process, I'm impressed by its comprehensiveness and thoroughness, as experienced by Dean Shepherd — this is very reassuring. There's clearly no need for an extra layer of regulation relating to length of post-MAAT experience, or of AAT membership level — FMAATs such as myself, who have our recent experience in industry rather than in practice, would clearly never be allowed near innocent taxpayers without further study and training, and rightly so.
Thank you for taking the time to give us a full update on the IFA issue, and I hope that you can provide us with further reassurance once your internal review is complete.0 -
Hello all,
I have noticed recently that the term "accountant" is appearing in more AAT official material. Rather than just "technician". Which is good news. I have seen it in a few places but here is the only one I can quickly find so early in the morning.......
"We have over 3,400 licensed and regulated accountants to meet your needs"
AAT has a lot going for it when used properly - e.g. AAT branch network support and MIP support really excel compared to CCAB. AAT does what it says on the tin and does it to a very high standard.
I see lots of CCAB people who never really use it to its full potential. Just as a CV tool (which its great for of course). Which is sad as they learn lots of skills where they could be running organisations, leading business etc. Not just sat in middle ranking roles that can be achieved through experience or AAT.
Happy easter all0
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